How are you a Christian and anarchist?
Discussion
Because Jesus taught morality and defiance to false authority. Which is exactly what anarchy is.
Until you overthrow the false authority and replace it with the church. And now we’re back to the same problem during the dark ages.
Nobody said anything about church. And most Christian Anarchists would never set foot in 99% of them
If you have ever read the Bible, its 100% clear Jesus was what we call an anarchist. A building has nothing to do with it, nor does organized religion.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her — Ephesians 5:25
For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. — Ephesians 5:29
Seems like the church is very important in Christianity
Those are not the words of Jesus
What are the words of Jesus?
A lot of things but these are not anything he said. These are someone else speaking. Trust me, Biblical Anarchy makes sense. It has zero to do with a building or a denomination. But does not preclude being involved with either. Churchianity is not Christianity. You are speaking of Churchianity.
Okay but what did he say? If the Bible is not his word, then what is?
The things he actually said. Who claims the entire Bible is things Jesus said?
Christians claim it is inspired by Jesus whatever that means
No, its the inspired Word of God. Jesus isnt even in the Bible until the New Testament. The easiest way to begin understanding this is to get literally everything you currently think of Christianity. Like I said, you are mistaking Christianity for Chrurchianity, or worse Judaized Christianity. None of that has any relevance to Christian Anarchy.
How do you know it’s the inspired word of god?
I was clearing up what you said about it being inspired by Jesus' words. Nobody has ever claimed that. Ever.
Most Christians I know quote the Bible as if it is the word Jesus so I wouldn’t say that no one has ever claimed that. You can claim that they are wrong but it is a common belief that any religious scripture is the word of god.
Again, Churchianity is NOT Christianity. Most of those clowns are 100% Biblically illiterate.
Okay so what do I with the Bible then? Because the verses I showed you were fake according to you. How do I know which is real and which is fake?
Fake? I never said nor implied anything of the sort. I said it is another person speaking.
Pick a podcast, any and all can explain this better
I would rather just go to the direct source/evidence. Is the Bible a credible source?
Yea, read it yourself, thats the best way for sure
But when I shared a Bible verse about loving the church, you rejected it. I’m so confused
All I said was it was not Jesus speaking so its less important than things He did say. The entire Bible is valid, just the teachings of Jesus supercede anything anyone else said. They werent wrong for telling people to commune with each other (church then is not the same as church now, often it did not involve anything but people gathering outside) but church as in a physical building is an Old Testament Judaic concept (temple, and they did mean a physical building).
Those podcasts also refer directly while explaining the position. The Bible itself isnt going to explicitly explain Biblical Anarchy. But its there for those with eyes to see. And as you are not a statist, I think you will be able to see it. Just forget / unlearn all you know about mainstream Christianity first
Give this a listen when you can
I’m not a religious person bro
Unless I am misunderstanding you, to be fair, plenty of Christians do claim that. They claim Jesus is god (and the holy spirit is god for that matter), and that the bible is the divinely inspired work of god. Therefore, the bible is the divinely inspired work of Jesus. Also, I am pretty sure there is a large subset of Christians who would take exception to your "Jesus isn't even in the bible until the new testament" argument and would state that the entirety of the bible is about Jesus. In fact, i believe I saw a pretty well known npub on her state that just the other day. If you are saying that only the words of Jesus matter in the bible, then why revere the bible at all...if you don't take the entirety of the bible as a whole being the divinely inspired work of god, then what is your justification for following Jesus?
I have never once heard anyone say the words 'the Bible is the inspired Word of Jesus' regardless of Jesus being God in the flash. And besides, no version of the statement exists anywhere in the Bible.
And when did I say I thought the Bible was anything other than divinely inspired?
That is where the "misunderstanding you" prefix in my note came from...I sensed some less than devout enthusiasm for the bible other than the words of Jesus in the thread. I was obviously incorrect. Sorry about that.
I'm curious if you view the bible as the divinely inspired Word of God which reveals Jesus Christ, who is himself the ultimate Word of God (John 1:1) but that Jesus (the Word of God) does not inspire the bible (the Word of God)?
I had the same sense regarding the Bible
Nowhere in the Bible do either of those statements exist though. Obviously its inspired. But the statement itself is just made up.
And yes, I do have less enthusiasm about parts that dont directly pertain to Jesus. Not that the whole thing does not have value or great messaging, but the whole point is Jesus. Without Him, there would be no Bible.
This is Jesus speaking. Does this sound like someone who gives a shit about earthly authority?
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 23, KJV
This is from the Bible. How is this the word of Jesus but the other verses I posted are not?
Because I am familiar with the Bible and I know His words from others'. And because the chapter I posted explicity states it is Jesus speaking. And because the two you posted were clearly someone else because Jesus never told anyone to love 'the Christ'. Others say that. Jesus says to 'love God'.
Oh, i see...
You are mistaken the Church for the woman clothed in purple and red, from Revelations 17
Don't let the enemy mislead you
I've wondered the same. anarchy makes sense to me philosop
grr. anarchy makes sense to me philosophically, but Romans 13:1 makes me pause
Personally, the foundation of my Christian Anarchism is recognizing that all people are images of God, and in Eden, we were given all the rest of creation to rule — but not each other. “Do not steal” and “do not murder” apply to everyone, and as the first is exactly what states must do to exist and the second is what they usually end up doing at some point (often to enforce the first), they’re not of God.
There’s a lot more to be said about this and I hope you fall down the rabbit hole!
The Libertarian Christian Institute is a great resource; check out this article addressing Romans 13 from there:
https://libertarianchristians.com/2022/10/24/proof-texting-political-authority/
The guy I quoted in the original post has a very good podcast, even with several episodes addressing Romans 13 in particular. Here’s just the first one:
True
Also, “Christ is King” is one of those things you hear so frequently they’ve lost some meaning. Fresh in its time, it was more clearly understood that if Christ is King, no one else can be.
This is why the establishment Jews that were in power at the time were killing Jesus’ contemporaries (Matthew 2:1-18) and trying to convince Rome that the Christian movement was a threat (John 19:12), and why the chant when Pilate offered Jesus’ release was “we have no king but Caesar” (John 19:15)
It’s true that the Christian movement recognized Jesus’ authority and that that is a threat to Roman authority, just not in the way it was being pitched. Usually that kind of thing goes along with a violent insurrection. But the kingdom of God was to grow in a different way, through service and love.
More on how states are a rejection of God’s authority: 1 Samuel 8
Depends which sect, there are some Christian sects that lean towards anarchism and communism rather than nationalist theocracy.
Like
God is the only authority over me type Christians.
Quakers are essentially anarchists.
They're the most organised one that you could call anarchists that I can think of off the top of my head.
My father's family were Jehovah's witnesses, definitely not anarchists, literally a cult of door to door salesman that figured out how profitable selling ideas instead of products could be.
But the scripture they actually follow seperates them a lot from mainstream Christianity, closer to Islam and Judaism.
All the pagan stuff that the Catholics added to Christianity is removed, anyway they do not respect the state.
Something about serving only gods kingdom, they refuse to go war, refuse to vote, mostly avoid politics unless it concerns religious freedom.
They actual organisation itself is totally corrupt though stay away from them.
The sects don’t matter when the Bible is clear on how it views government and authority