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I want to stay on the point of human authority for now.

The first point you will probably agree with me. That is a parent's authority over his children.

Colossians 3:20 "Children obey your parents in everything, for it is pleasing to the Lord."

This isn't about kings obviously, but it does establish that submission to a natural authority is not contrary to God's will, in fact in this case it is precisely what he wills.

How about civil authorities? I submit Romans 13:1-7

"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.

For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,

for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.

Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.

This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.

Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due"

Again not addressing a king specifically, but God plainly approves of submission to authority. One could argue that God is just referring to His own authority since He is the source of all authority, but while that is true, He plainly means the civil authorities since He mentions taxes.

Ok let's tackle the king thing.

1 Peter 2:13-17

"Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether it be to the king as supreme or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the approval of those who do good.

For it is the will of God that by doing good you may silence the ignorance of foolish people. Be free, yet without using freedom as a pretext for evil, but as slaves of God.

Give honor to all, love the community, fear God, honor the king."

"Be subject" and "Be free" may seem contradictions but the first is discussing subjection to the civil law and the second is talking about interior disposition. It is possible to be free in prison if you are the master of your own mind.

So while I can agree that Judges makes it clear that Human leaders will abuse their power, that does not make structures of authority contrary to God's will, in fact He apparently demands that we submit to them precisely because he gave them authority over us.

The Beave 8mo ago

I will answer you with this question:

Who is my king?

I have no king but Christ.

You are missing the point that Kings were (and I suppose are) primarily judges for those to whom they are in authority over.

Precisely who is the king of the US? The President? No. Who is the king of the State of Maine where I currently reside? Who is the king of the town where I live?

I'll also point out that throughout the whole of the Bible, there are many examples of those who defied authority because those ego wielded that authority were ordering them to do something against The Law, which is a much higher authority than any earthly or even unearthly ruler. Do you think Stephen should have not given his testimony even though it led to him being stoned? Do you think Jesus should have not flipped tables and literally whipped those desecrating His Father's temple? What of Paul who was imprisoned for preaching subversion?

Yes, be subject to authority. But whose authority? What do they aim to do? Are your taxes going to good governance or to murdering innocents? (War, abortion, euthanasia, etc.)

I reject human authority. If you think that's daft, fine, but please show me to whom I'm supposed to subject myself.

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Daniel Wigton 8mo ago

I don't think it daft. I think it is half the picture.

"I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other God beside me." Are about the greatest words in any language. It makes us invunerable to all kinds of silly or evil movements and trends.

The two sides of the coin are how you reconcile "Christ is king." With "Submit to those in authority over you." It is actually quite easy. Christ delegates authority to his church and we submit ourselves to it in turn.

The state, in turn, is valid if it submits itself to Christ and to his Church. All throughout the Old testament God promises the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom. At no point does He promise a return to the time of Judges.

The mistake that the Jews made was in thinking that it was going to just go back to the way it was. A human king and Kingdom. But God had other plans. He did give us a human king, but it was himself. But now if we have a king we need a Kingdom. He delegates his authority to his ministers.

Look at Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom.."

That is a king handing authority to his representative.

You can complain about his choice but you cannot deny that he did it. He gave Simon a new name just like he did for Abraham and Israel when he confirmed that they would be Fathers of his nation. He gave him his authority.

The part you miss about Catholics is that we don't remotely think of the Pope as a king. He is the successor of Peter, the chief Steward of the king. The other bishops are in a similar position. This is why the Orthodox still have some authority. But the rock is Peter and those bishops that remain with him have a unique position in the kingdom.

That is how God guaranteed that we would be able to find the appropriate authorities to submit to. You can claim to follow Christ alone, but to reject the Kingdom is to reject the King.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 8mo ago

the problem with this statist interpretation is that Jesus defines who his church is, not humans.

if we were not supposed to fight tyranny as christians then what was that whole story about jesus? i mean, idk have you read the story of Abraham in Genesis? he kept on fighting against the idolatry his parents were engaged in, he destroyed his father's room full of idols, and being an awesome smartass, pointed at the one he left standing and said "it was him, look at the tool in his hands"

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 8mo ago

the king's words were pretty clear and his deeds even clearer

samuel, samson, job, daniel, noah, the list goes on and on of the patriarchs of the Church who opposed corruption, and in many cases, corruption within the earthy congregation

and the modern stories such as the woman who threw her chair at the priest over the church leaders obeying the king's mandate to see him as the king is another example

the modern papacy is a corrupt organisation with leaders now who are literally whitewashing the crimes of the abuser priests among them, which means their real king is not the same one who hung on the cross

Daniel Wigton 8mo ago

The Abuse scandal and other crimes are Millstone material. Better for them to be cast into the sea than to lead people from God. But in spite of evil leaders, God's promises, God's kingdom, and God's people remain. Just like I. The Old testament, no matter how the Israelites sinned, including idolatry, God maintained His end of the bargain. He never took his covenant from them.

Likewise he literally and plainly gave his New Covenant to his church. That they have at times done badly does not remove the promises. He cannot withdraw them. He is the King! It is his Kingdom, He can punish his own but he won't renounce it.

The Beave 8mo ago

We are the church, the ecclesia, the assembly of believers, NOT "The Catholic Church." The arrogance of that name pisses me off.

Any organization that hides child abuse needs to be ripped out at the root and burned, nevermore to let evil fester in dark corners, or even in the wider halls of the institution.

The Beave 8mo ago

I want to contrast what Jesus said to Peter vs. what God said to Abraham and others.

Jesus gave PETER the keys to the kingdom. To my knowledge, He NEVER stated that there would ever be anyone else to receive those keys, so it is exceedingly dumb to try to turn that into some kind of patrilineal thing that was never stated. God was explicitly clear about Abraham being the father of many nations, so if God wanted a "poppa" for His Church, he would have said so. The entirety of the office of the Pope is a falsehood. Point blank. Full stop. Do not pass go, and in many cases hopefully go straight to jail.

There is NOTHING in scripture that points to ANYTHING resembling modern Christian Denominations and paid clergy (though the Levite priests can be seen as a mostly comparable facsimile of that, but . . . ARE NOT NEEDED NOW THAT WE CAN INTERACT WITH GO THROUGH THE GRACE OF JESUS' DEATH AND RESURRECTION!)

Back to the point of Peter . . .

He's doing his thing with Jesus in the heavenly realm. He is not here. Therefore, the keys to the kingdom are NOT HERE since Jesus hasn't returned yet to establish his kingdom. Nothing in the New Testament (again, to my knowledge) points to any divinely appointed successorship of that position. The concept of the pope is a human political thing that is NOT the preference of God. (IMO)

So . . . back to human authority: I submit myself all the time. I listen to my supervisors at work. I tend to obey most traffic laws. I don't steal. I do not initiate violence without very good reason. I will not bear false witness, etc.

But . . . show me what government on this planet is aligned with Christ, in fruit that is plainly visible. Sure, God will harmonize everything to His Will as only he can, but, that is not the same thing as if there was a kingdom here that was subordinate to Christ as king from top to bottom. IMO, the only way that it is possible for that to exist is for each man to build that in his own home/family/tribe. That would be more appropriate and much more devastating to all of the Evil in the world.

To sum up: I see no proper human authority to which I must submit myself. The whole foundation of the Catholic Church is based on statecraft, not God's Word. I've yet to see anything good from the upper echelons of the Catholic Church even if some local parishes do good for their communities. This whole concept is wrong, and is holding back God's goodness, mercy, and love, which is contemptible to me.