Nostr Web Client

Conclusions

Bluesky is built by good people who care, and it is providing something that people desperately want and need. If you are looking for a Twitter replacement, you can find it in Bluesky today.

However, I stand by my assertions that Bluesky is not meaningfully decentralized and that it is certainly not federated according to any technical definition of federation we have had in a decentralized social network context previously. To claim that Bluesky is decentralized or federated in its current form moves the goalposts of both of those terms, which I find unacceptable.

However, "credible exit" is a reasonable term to describe what Bluesky is aiming for. It is Bluesky's term, and I think Bluesky should embrace that term fully in all contexts and work that they can.

boston wine 1y ago

Interesting take on bluesky - she seems to treat it fairly.

I love that you made a highlight on Nostr, this is my favorite part 🤙

Gotta say, her take on Nostr would benefit from a do-over 🙄

“more uncomfortable version of Secure Scuttlebutt for Bitcoin people to talk about Bitcoin” … she clearly hasn’t been here in a while, but it’s a shame to lose intelligent people!

Overall it’s a pretty fair/well-reasoned, not-overly-technical assessment of bluesky. Haven’t logged in there in at least six months and i can safely say that I don’t miss it at all.

They created a “left” Twitter all right… all the way down to the snarky disagreeable vibes where most people are at each others’ throats as their default setting 🤷‍♂️

Grateful for nostr and for Dan Wedge and for all the plebs and devs and frens here 🫂💜🫡

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Discussion

Dan Wedge 1y ago

Its hard for me to be on nostr some days still feels like an echo chamber here. I mean liberty is cool but much of the conversations here tend to sound more like they are being had by a mob marching on the kings door. Rather than Plato’s academy.

Maybe a sign of the times, either way i am thankful that nostr has amazing soil and while the seedling is still needing much attention it will grow to be the redwood forest of lore.

I am thankful for you here ₿ wine, and all the change makers.

inpc 1y ago

I definitely find myself struggling for subjects to interact with, musician communities are way stronger on the Fediverse, although the general outlook here is more positive so tending to be here a bit more now,

I do think we have to be the change we want to see, that comes at a cost, be that time, dopamine deprivation or equipment etc (running nodes or servers for streaming for example).

I have no answers but I do have non btc shitposting…

CitizenPedro 1y ago

Hey there! So I consider myself very fond of Buddhism, vegetarianism, permaculture/agroforestry, Bitcoin of course (I think Bitcoin is incredible), great fan of direct democracy (Swiss democracy), lover of eastern and classical philosophy (Greek) but also classic liberal philosophy, libertarianism and voluntaryism. I'm also very into music and art in general.

So not really the typical Bitcoin carnivore maximalist. Whom I don't judge, obviously. And also I have many leftists friends, who I also love and understand the perspective, although I think it's only a very small part of the picture.

Anyways, just to say that there's many different kinds of people on Nostr. We're here :). Happy to get together and make Nostr more open!

Happy to help with Plato's academy.

boston wine 1y ago

Great note, sir. Followed 🤝

CitizenPedro 1y ago

Likewise :)

Really empathize with your message. I'm also not a fan of echo chambers and would really prefer a respectful debate place for everyone. That would make Nostr much much more useful for everyone.

Thank you very much for reminding everyone with your very important post.

boston wine 1y ago

🫂🤝

I’ve found that the majority of discussion I have here is respectful — even when disagreeing with the other party, it doesn’t tend to downgrade into ad hominems and other nonsense you normally would see online.

Part of it, I’m sure, is that the incentives are different. On Twitter, jerks are rewarded with engagement and reach. Here, they (usually) find themselves politely ignored, while watching the other users who engage in good faith get to enjoy thoughtful/civil discourse and zaps!

As for the echo chamber, I’m starting to think that nostr isn’t actually one. Yes, there’s a lot of discussion of specific topics, but I think that’s more a result of the interests of the particular group of people who showed up early and make up a lot of the user base. But you can find plenty of other unrelated content if you look.

I’d think of an echo chamber as the self-reinforcing ideological loop, often algorithmically-driven or enhanced, that suppressed or crowds out any dissenting voices. Bitcoin Twitter is an example of that, whereas “Bitcoin nostr” to me feels much more like a bunch of bitcoiners who’ve found a space to communicate and hang out so the each other, built on tech that is already aligned with many of our philosophical views, but where diverse viewpoints and discussion have as much “posting power” as the prevailing view, due to the absence of the toxic algos.

I’m still chewing on this and may reformulate it, but hey - thinking “out loud” (ish).

Pleasure conversing with you!

inpc 1y ago

I agree about incentives, the Fediverse was similar when I hoping (2019). X and Facebook deliberately set people against each other for engagement.

I disagree this isn’t an echo chamber of sorts, how many non bitcoiner folks are here, the number must be pretty small judging by the timeline.

I’ll be curious to see what happens if more left leaning voices appear here. It will still fair better than X and Facebook though in my opinion. It’s a matter of record that Facebook very deliberately experimented with peoples’ emotional states showing them only negative content. That was probably the biggest reason I deleted my accounts with them. Career suicide? Maybe but I’m still alive and having fun making niche records!

Hopefully there will be decent conversations about how we function as a society. I never hear Austrian economists discuss social issues, other than “the market will solve everything”. But clearly governments are also failing in that regard.

I don’t know the answers, I just know I can turn your mic up and down and make you sound good!

boston wine 1y ago

Sounds like we’re fairly aligned in our hopes for what nostr will become

On the echo chamber point, I was more looking at it from the question of “what qualifies a space as an echo chamber?”

Like, is it sufficient that a large group of people are all focused on a particular topic? Do they all need to mostly agree and share a worldview? What happens when someone disagrees, or introduces unrelated content?

When I think of the term “echo chamber” I’m picturing a discussion space where the vibe is somewhere between “self-reinforcing” (at best) and a “group-navel-gaze/circle jerk” at worst (pardon the crude metaphor, lol).

But is a hobbyist-club/event an echo chamber, simply because the attendees share a set of views and passions? Or does it need to also have a sort of layer of exclusionary/repressive vibe towards others who disagree?

In that way (again, still formulating), this doesn’t “feel” like an echo chamber, to me. In part because I’ve followed accounts and hashtags that provide me with a diversity of topics and perspectives in my feed, but also because it doesn’t feel like a place where everyone just pats each other on the back and reinforces flawed perspectives without pushback; in fact there’s a good deal of debate and (mostly respectful) disagreement within the discussions, whether about Bitcoin or otherwise.

I’ve also noticed that non-Bitcoin content is asked for, encouraged, welcomed, boosted, zapped, and generally celebrated. Likely because those of us who were here early, despite being passionate about Bitcoin, also genuinely want to see nostr grow and succeed, and we know that the social layer needs diverse attractions to bring more people in.

Anyway, I guess what I’m getting at is that the ratio of Bitcoin content kind of matches the interest/ratio of the user base. And as more people have joined over the past year or two, bringing different perspectives and wider variety of interests, that ratio has begun to change as well.

I follow hashtags like #nature #artstr #winechain #musicstr #privacy #philosophy #plantstr #foodstr #coffeechain etc., and in doing so have curated an experience here that feels rich and engaging. Oh, and #grownostr was an early focus at expanding the range of topics beyond the initial discussions of “Bitcoin and nostr”, and I still use it daily!

Dan Wedge 1y ago

I think the reason I called it an echo chamber is because put user base is still prominently about the monetary system. Yes we have other interests and they are encouraged but from the daily user base there is definitely not much else that sparks our attention.

I would love to hear from nostr:npub1qnykqjt67cv2ux84z3anuhpsnmea3f39za52rsyzpcpvjdmgesasvkcxvz as well as she's been the one who really loves the topic.

I would say a echo chamber is the same content everytime. I haven't introduced my better half to nostr yet as “Bitcoin is just a bunch of far-right anti-communalists.” I still don't think she's fully wrong and while you fine people would be my recommendation for a more… moderate thought, it'd not quite where she will enjoy the full experience.

inpc 1y ago

Your wife’s perspective sounds very similar to my wife’s!

mattybs 1y ago

I have the same reasoning for not inviting my better half to Nostr. Maybe in time. This is the best tech

Dan Wedge 1y ago

I really have hope for Olas as the client that will work to hook the more creative types. For the time its all very new, and we are still building. I do feel the conversation coming up soon though.

We might have to start #BetterHalfChain

Chip 1y ago

I’m the same boat over here - not even trying to get my wife on Nostr yet…

though I did bring my Dad over to give it a try. He posts on 2 platforms every damn day as a 70+ fitness guy - but really struggled here. As Olas gets easier I’ll get him to try it.

DoShitters 1y ago

Little by little we #grownostr with people that seek other interests , and even if #nostr userbase is still mostly interested in #bitcoin … the more people we get to post about other stuff, the less it will be an echo chamber 💜🐙

boston wine 1y ago

I wonder that the positive outlook here is aligned/correlated with the hopefulness one finds among so many bitcoiners.

Nostr, as freedom tech, also tends to feed that sense of possibility, improvement, freedom, and the greater good of humanity, in a way that goes far beyond “a better way to interact socially online”

I’d venture that nostr (and Bitcoin) as representative of a cause, for human rights, freedom, and flourishing, inherently creates the positivity and hope and joy that people experience here, on the social layer of this movement.

The other platforms/protocols seem less focused on humanity and more on “replacing Twitter” and similar areas of focus. My two sats 🫡

inpc 1y ago

I was going to say it’s because most folks here are fucking loaded lol.

I know from my own life, negativity often comes from a place of despair which is common if you’re living hand to mouth.

It took me MANY years to come to terms with life and it’s still hard from time to time but I look out for positivity where I can, I know that spreads and can lift up those around me (and vice versa).

I’ve said before I’m a low income person but I took the choice to do what I love in life and that’s cool.

But seriously, most of you lot are rich as fuck!

I wish I was still into drugs when I first heard of Bitcoin, I could’ve got ahead of the pack…

boston wine 1y ago

Hahaha I’ve wondered that. But I don’t think that’s it. Even many of the early bitcoiners are still private and frugal. But I see many nostriches post things that suggest the majority aren’t actually “bitcoin rich”. I’ve certainly not been around long enough (or stacked quickly enough) to experience the astronomical/life-changing impacts of previous cycles. Not yet, anyway.

And perhaps that “not yet” is also where some of the optimism comes from…

But no — well, yes — but not primarily or exclusively. The prospect of “perfect financial stability” is of course enticing, but it’s about so much more than that. It’s that Bitcoin can provide *anyone* with that ability to get free. And that as the process unfolds, it also pushes the society as a whole toward a healthier, more balanced, and less corruptible system where more and more people can finally break free of the extreme income inequality and oppression underlying so many peoples’ anxiety, depression, and nihilism so common today.

There’s a reason we all call ourselves plebs 🫂🧡🫡

Hurvajs Rumcajs 1y ago

"mob marching on the kings door" 🤣😂🤣

CitizenPedro 1y ago

I wanted to answer you, but answered the other responder:

Here's an answer to your post.

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boston wine 1y ago

Thankful for you too, brother 🫂🫂

I’ve been thinking about this a bit too. A coworker had asked me yesterday if I’d heard about bluesky “open source and decentralized” and we had a good conversation about how it’s more of a Twitter clone for the left, in contrast to nostr’s enormous range of use cases and versatility.

It’s cool to watch Nostr continue evolving in and beyond the social media environment.

Amazing soil indeed 🌱