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What is “Premillennial Dispensationalism”?

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

A super short version?

"Pre-millennial" means the belief that Christ will return before the 1000 year reign mentioned in The Revelation. But it's not this aspect that is so troubling.

"Dispensationalism" (perhaps an oversimplification:

1) God governs history through seven "dispensations" (periods of history) wherein the way to be right with him is different each time

2) the Jews have a separate destiny than the Gentiles; God deals primarily with the ethnically Jewish people, the time of the Gentiles is a parenthetic in their story

3) an over literal reading of apocalyptic texts (e.g., "the wasps in revelation are Huey model 4A"

It's not quite as prominent as it used to be, and has been modified quite a bit since the turn of the 20th century when it was dominant, but these inclinations linger.

Others please chime in if I've misrepresented or left something out, but thise three points are the essence of (classical) dispensationalism, as I understand it.

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Discussion

Weatherall 2y ago

have you ever heard the idea that Christendom's dominion was the thousand-year reign ?

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

No, not precisely. I believe the "1000 year reign" is to be read within its apocalyptic context, that it is not literal but "a very long time." I believe it began at the resurrection or perhaps the ascension, that--as Paul said--we're in the "last days" now, and have been since Christ ascended.

Weatherall 2y ago

ok. allow me to play #^%*% advocate...

if the bible says 1000-year reign, yet people interpret that in various ways, for you "a long time", is that violating the "dont change one word" admonition ?

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

We're talking about apocalyptic literature here, which gets interpreted differently than, say, an Epistle. Was Daniel's statue with clay feet literal? No, but it was...true. Will a giant Serpent in corporal form be literally bound (with what?)? Most likely not, but the enemy's power will be somehow restrained. The use of types, figures, analogy, symbolism, and metaphor is heavy in apocalyptic.

So, to answer your question, I don't think I'm adding to or taking away if I'm getting at what the word (in context) is actually meant to communicate.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

I further believe that, despite all the good things to come from that period, Christendom--where the church effectively "bore the sword"--was a mistake. As Christians, we are pilgrims and exiles in this world. Here we have no continuing city, we look for a better and heavenly one. We can and should "work and pray for the peace and prosperity of the cities into which we've been driven" (so to speak) and we should seek to uphold justice in the land, but not to use force to bring about God's kingdom. We persuade, we do not coerce.

Weatherall 2y ago

i am assuming the model here then is Christ himself ?

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

In a sense, yes. But Christ is more the object/person in whose completed work we trust more than he is our moral example.

Weatherall 2y ago

the reason I asked is because of Christ's actions of compulsion toward the monied interests in the temple ...

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Oh, haha. I missed it.

Weatherall 2y ago

its not meant to be a pot shot or something ... I take the topic of this discussion seriously given the state of things...

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Likewise! 🤙🏼

Weatherall 2y ago

i guess what I am asking is this :

If Christ is the model, and the cleansing of the temple is an aspect of Him, then is "persuasion over compulsion" biblical in essence, or is it part of the detritus of sentimentalism ?

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

It is not uniquely Christian to practice self-defense; it is simply human, and part of the moral law (the flip side of "do not murder" is having the right to not be murdered), and part of the code governing the common kingdom (aka the Noachic covenant in Gen 9).

I wouldn't say Christ calls us to use violence or aggression to drive out sinners. No. Not at all. Defensively? Yes. He has already done the cleansing and the disarming and will return to finish the job. Doesn't mean we can't seek justice and honesty in contracts and commerce now, though. Just not violently.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

I should add: "for now." There is an "already" aspect of the kingdom (ethical) and there is a "not yet" aspect (geopolitical) as well. What comes next...ain't gonna be pretty. But Christ will initiate upon return.

Weatherall 2y ago

the word was compulsion which is distinct from violence and aggression as commonly understood - maybe a bit of context will help. hang on.

Weatherall 2y ago

actually its a bit difficult - was gonna scan a chapter , then two for clarity , but i think its better to just(non-compulsively) suggest the book - maybe you will find it of interest - I think I may have already shared it here:

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

That looks interesting. I'll check it out, thank you! 🤙🏼

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Just read the blurb on Amazon. Added to wishlist! I am not a pacificst, btw. Just for reference, WLC on the 6th commandment is instructive:

Q. 134. Which is the sixth commandment?

A. The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill.

Q. 135. What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?

A. The duties required in the sixth commandment are, all careful studies, and lawful endeavors, to preserve the life of ourselves and others by resisting all thoughts and purposes, subduing all passions, and avoiding all occasions, temptations, and practices, which tend to the unjust taking away the life of any; by just defense thereof against violence, patient bearing of the hand of God, quietness of mind, cheerfulness of spirit; a sober use of meat, drink, physic, sleep, labor, and recreations; by charitable thoughts, love, compassion, meekness, gentleness, kindness; peaceable, mild and courteous speeches and behavior; forbearance, readiness to be reconciled, patient bearing and forgiving of injuries, and requiting good for evil; comforting and succoring the distressed, and protecting and defending the innocent.

Q. 136. What are the sins forbidden in the sixth commandment?

A. The sins forbidden in the sixth commandment are, all taking away the life of ourselves, or of others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense; the neglecting or withdrawing the lawful and necessary means of preservation of life; sinful anger, hatred, envy, desire of revenge; all excessive passions, distracting cares; immoderate use of meat, drink, labor, and recreations; provoking words, oppression, quarreling, striking, wounding, and whatsoever else tends to the destruction of the life of any.

Weatherall 2y ago

Added to wishlist!

excellent!

now i wont be the only one on the FBI list!

#strengthinnumbers

Interesting, hadn't thought about the thousand years in that way (I.e. symbolic) but makes some sense...

The latter chapters of Ezekiel are quite interesting in that they remain unfulfilled and are quite specific...

(I love 45:9-12)

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Yes! Also, "An unjust balance the Lord abhors."

You would love how the WLC applies the requirements and the prohibitions of the 8th commandment ("Thou shalt not steal"):

[Westminster Larger Catechism](https://opc.org/lc.html) - scroll down to Q140-142...

Thanks for the link!

Also, reflecting on the symbolism of a "thousand years" as a "full" human life (echoes of those in early genesis who lived almost a thousand years)

141 and 142 seem in contradiction WRT to bitcoin :

"Engrossing" bitcoin to enhance the price doesn't harm anyone and even

"further[s] the wealth and outward estate of others, as well as our own"

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

That refers to withholding supply of a good to *artificially* increase price (think de Beers and diamonds), rather than letting the market dictate. That would be a form of fraud. But bitcoin as money is something that we save, not a product we make and sell as some sort of monopolist. Make sense?

I agree that bitcoin is money but most of the world and its regulators do not

I wonder how the church will define bitcoin...

Not sure how/why the sacrifices described in Ezekiel 45 are NOT superseded by Christ's sacrifice once for all though..

No sir. Never heard that.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

The alternative to this view would be Reformed federal/covenant theology. Where history and humanity revolve around the first Adam and the last Adam, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. The idea that there has always been only one way to be saved and his name id Chrsit Jesus: the OT saints looked forward to his coming by faith, and we look backward. God's dealings are not primarily with the Jews but with the fallen race as a whole (Gen. 3:15), and that the time of the Jews was a parenthetic in that greater story. This too is a very inadequate explanation given the space (and medium) but that's a trailhead for you to take if you want to pursue it further. You could, for example, read the Westminster Confession or the Larger Catechism or the Heidelberg to get at the "big picture" of what the whole counsel of God principally teaches.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

Ugh. Fat fingers. Sorry for all the typos.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

The Millennium refers to the "1000 year" reign of Christ referred to in The Revelation.

The pre-millennial view has Christ returning *before* the millennium.

The post-millennial view has Christ returning *after* the millennium. A common distinctive of this view is that we, by our efforts, bring about the kingdom on earth, thus preparing the way for Christ's return.

The a-millennial view is that the 1000 years is figurative and apocalyptic, not literal, but shares the view that Christ returns after it. A commin distinctive of this view is that Christ will establish his kingdom on earth (not us), that he brings it with him (so to speak) when he comes bearing the sword. In the mean time, we are pilgrims and exiles in waiting.

Again, it's more detailed than this short snippet, but that's a start.