Replying to Avatar Lyn Alden

There are 60 million millionaires in the world, and every single one of them has a store of value problem. And so does everyone else in the world.

The cost to ship a sizable amount of gold internationally costs hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. Even if you just buy hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gold domestically and bring it home, you're paying a spot markup of thousands of dollars. The cost to close a luxury mansion real estate deal (which many wealthy people just own and leave empty as a store of value) can be hundreds of thousands of dollars or more, and then depending on their jurisdiction they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in property taxes on it. An international wire transfer often costs like $30 and takes days and is entirely permissioned/centralized/credit-based. Credit card fees are like 3%. The global banking industry generates hundreds of billions of dollars in fees per year even though it's all centralized.

Bitcoin is a decentralized global liquid store of value and settlement network. You can send money to any internet-connected person in the world generally in an hour or less depending on desired block confirmations. You can indefinitely self-custodially store value in a unit that is scarcer than gold and scarcer than real estate and that unlike both gold and real estate is globally portable. It currently costs like $35 to do this and everyone is losing their minds at how expensive that seems. But $35 is an *outstanding* price for this service, and in ten years I have no idea what the price will be but there are many scenarios where it could be way higher.

Right now, bitcoin fees are higher than normal because people are trading frogs on the timechain and so forth. But regardless, people need to be ready for the prospect of sustained high fees if bitcoin adoption continues to grow structurally with limited block space. This means users, developers, businesses, etc. To put it into this bigger context, fees are still insanely cheap compared to other alternatives listed above that give similar store of value and global payment properties at scale.

I'm a bit surprised fees haven't *already* been $35 on a regular basis by now. So to flip it around; fees aren't expensive because there are frogs on the timechain; fees are still cheap because relatively few people are using bitcoin to send and store money compared to the total addressable market that could be doing so.

Does this price out small users? Unfortunately, yes. That's where layers come in, and the options vary depending on if someone is a power user or not. Hal Finney wrote about that in 2010; it's not a new narrative.

A couple Lightning channels can open a lot of payment liquidity for you. Sidechains like Liquid didn't get much attention when fees were low but now people are giving them a second look. Chaumian mints allow communities around the world to set up their own community banks/custodians with built-in privacy. Places like Cash App allow people to buy bitcoin with decent custodial assurances run by serious people (eg it's not some crazy-haired idiot in the Bahamas). These are all tools that people can use to have bitcoin price exposure, pay in bitcoin, etc. And a unique aspect of bitcoin is the ability to split control. Multi-institution multi-sigs, or federated sidechains: the fact that ownership can be broken into several different entities is not something available to gold or similar assets, and yet a lot of people take it for granted on bitcoin. These are all tools that businesses can offer and people can use for smaller amounts, and then pull into on-chain self-custody if they have a sizable balance for longer-term storage.

In the future, some soft forks or non-form upgrades might allow other types of models. I think the ecosystem is still in its infancy. But in the meantime, it helps to have perspective on what bitcoin offers compared to alternatives, and to be realistic about the long-run inevitability of substantial base-layer fees if any meaningful adoption becomes sustained, and thus the importance of preparing for them.

What would be too high a fee for you ? Follow up question: Why is that too high a price and what abour bitcoin stops it from getting that high ?

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I'd pay four figures for a significant bitcoin settlement transaction if that was the market price.

That's a high price because it starts to become HNW and institutional only even in the developed world. Nothing necessarily stops it from getting that high but the downward pressure at that point would be tremendous because there would be so many alternatives that are reasonably secure, but also faster and more private and more programmable, but for 1/100th or 1/1000th the cost as being on the main chain.

To put it into perspective, if in the future there is higher adoption and just ten million entities in the world (let's say 10% of businesses and HNW people) want to do an on-chain bitcoin transaction on behalf of themselves or their customers per week, they can't. There's not enough blockspace for that. Even they have to use on-chain transactions less frequently, make use of large Lightning channels, make use of other L2s, or make use of whatever soft fork methods exist at that time.

At that fee rate, your net worth would also scale with the Bitcoin price implied by it though. So you may be willing to pay even more than four figures.

I'm just trying to point out the arbitraryness of what a reasonable fee is, divorced from pure mechanism.

It's also great to see your openess to L2's and soft forks in favor of solutions, beware the Toxic priests that excomunicae people who start looking for solutions outside of LN.

You even mentioning big blocks somewhere a few days ago has you on their list.

It would be also completely preposterous to argue for democratization through small blocks while having to pay four figures for a single transaction