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Lunchnet
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Likes lunches and networks
Replying to Avatar Bitman

The OP_RETURN drama just shows how MANY people don’t understand the basics of how #Bitcoin works.

Spoiler: you can’t stop arbitrary data storage on the timechain. Trying to do so might even make things worse.

Some people are saying it's possible to "filter" spam in the mempool.

Wrong. That’s unfeasible. Anyone saying that is either misinformed or acting in bad faith.

The mempool is just local policy. Who really decides what goes into a block are the miners.

Many blindly believe influencers without understanding the fundamentals:

#Bitcoin is a decentralized database designed to store data.

Financial transactions are one type of data — not the only one.

"But shouldn’t we prioritize financial transactions?"

Yes.

"But can we stop arbitrary data from going into the timechain?"

No.

"Are there good reasons to store arbitrary data on #Bitcoin?"

Absolutely.

L2s and scalability solutions depend on on-chain proofs.

That’s just data storage.

It doesn’t matter what your node accepts or not — miners are incentivized to include these transactions and profit from them.

Financial incentives are what drive the system. Period.

If you try to become a “Bitcoin™ Defender” by running software with crazy filters...

Guess what?

The transactions go straight to the miners (with extra fees)

Small miners get left behind

Mining centralizes

People will hide the data using steganography (and you won’t even notice)

Even worse: it discourages developers.

Few people work full-time on #Bitcoin already.

Imagine having to deal with drama and FUD just to propose a basic PR?

Fewer devs = slower progress = more risk = weaker #Bitcoin.

"But what about spam?"

#Bitcoin already has a built-in antispam: fees.

Don’t want to see JPEGs or zk-proofs?

Use real #Bitcoin: spend, self-custody, join the circular economy.

You know why “spam” increased so much?

Because most people stopped using #Bitcoin on-chain.

Today it’s all custodians: Strike, Wallet of Satoshi, Liquid…

Less usage = more free space = more arbitrary data on the timechain.

Want to fix it?

More real usage → more demand for block space → higher fees → less incentive to use Bitcoin as storage.

Simple. And effective.

Want to “save #Bitcoin”?

It’s not through filtering, censorship, or hysteria.

It’s through real usage, open source, economic incentives, and freedom.

#Bitcoin is neutral. And that’s a good thing.

So your argument is nobody uses the chain so we need to remove filters to make way for these new L2s? Doesn't make sense. Plus you can just hash things into the existing 80 byte limit to anchor anything you might want.

And the part about mining centralization is a psyop. Miners will compete for out of band spam transactions and spammers will pay a fee premium because they can't get it relayed any other way. It would actually help the long tail of small miners who'd mine spam for cheaper than the big miners would because they'd take longer. The fee premium also helps spammers run out of money faster.

This is nothing but money trying to turn bitcoin into ethereum.

His reasoning is wrong. An external fee market will develop among miners with spammers paying a premium over the mempool fee because it can't get relayed any other way. It could actually further decentralize mining because some small 1% miner could charge say a 1% premium vs say Foundry taking a 10% fee. Patient spammers will take it and wait a day for a block. Filtering this way will accelerate spammers running out of money. As with everything in bitcoin, sticking to your principles is the path to victory.

Replying to Avatar Rusty Russell

I listened to the What Bitcoin Did Saylor podcast, and I really want to respond, though that may be unwise. But I want thoughtful, fearless content in my feed, so I should start making some, right?

Firstly, while analogies can provide useful guide rails for understanding, listening to people *arguing* using analogies makes you stupider. Debate the thing itself, not the words about the thing: it hurts my head to even think about doing this, so I won't.

Let's set my priors first: I assume we're talking about technically solid, well-vetted, backward compatible protocol changes: this is the minimum bar.

I don't wholesale agree with Saylor's "don't threaten anyone's investment" hard limit. This has happened multiple times in the past, from the dust limit breaking SatoshiDice, enabling Lightning threatening miner fees (real or not), and segwit breaking stealth ASICBoost. These interests can, and will, stand up for themselves and will compete against other benefits of changes.

To be explicit: I consider any protocol change which makes block space usage more efficient to be a win!

Obviously Saylor is invested in Bitcoin the asset, and can afford to do all his business onchain in any conceivable scenario. His projection of a Bitcoin world in which there are 100,000 companies and governments who use Bitcoin as the base layer is interesting:

1. This does not need "smart contracts", just signatures. By this model, Bitcoin Script was a mistake.

2. It can work if Bitcoin does not scale and is incredibly expensive to spend and hold. By this model, the consumer hardware wallet industry is a dead-end and needs to pivot to something else (nostr keys, ecash?)

3. You could do this with gold, today? Bitcoin here is simply an incremental, not fundamental, improvement. I think this is suggestive, though: that such a network would not be long-term stable, and very much subject to capture.

4. In this view, Saylor is simply a gold bug with first mover advantage, shilling his bags. That's fine, but it's important to understand people's motivations.

5. This vision does not excite me. I wouldn't have left Linux development to work on making B2B commerce more efficient. I wouldn't get up at 5:30am for spec calls, and I sure as hell wouldn't be working this cheap.

I believe we can make people's UTXOs more powerful, and thus feel a moral responsibility to do so. This gives them more control over their own money, and allows more people to share that control. I assume that more people will do good things than stupid things, because assuming the other way implies that someone should be able to stop them, and that's usually worse.

I believe the result will be a more stable, thus useful, Bitcoin network. I am aware that this will certainly benefit people with very different motivations than me (Saylor).

Thanks for reading, and sorry for the length!

Too much utility is damaging: we’ll end up with miners being the only ones economically capable of processing covenant transactions due to the demand and we are back to big blocks. It really doesn’t work. Saylor is right.

Replying to Avatar corndalorian

Disagree. Ecash has better privacy, plus with a federated custodianship there’s less chance of a rug.

It’s nice knowing there’s no nasty algos of censorship here.

Nostr is an everything app (like what Elon Musk's X is trying to be). Except in Nostr, the system must trust the user, not the other way around.

Bitcoin needing to stay ahead of quantum computers is like an animal needing to stay ahead of its predator, but the ultimate predator, time, always wins. Eventually quantum computers will destroy bitcoin, we will enter a dark age, and eventually either destroy ourselves, recover enough to repeat the cycle, or finally learn how to leave this universe and enter another where we have better chances for survival. Even a black hole evaporates and the Universe cannot stay ahead of its inevitable heat death.

When the time comes, and quantum computers can steal Satoshi's coins, there may be opposition to letting then be stolen but we must. We must let them be mixed with the rest of the supply. Satoshi's coins belong to everyone; and their mingling with the rest of the supply will guarantee that bitcoin remains fungible by eliminating censorship as there will always be miners that hold the belief that Satoshi's coins must be free and it is an inspiring idea to rally around even if outnumbered. If we can guarantee in this way that all coins are spendable then that is what will truly make bitcoin fungible.

The only time #Bitcoin will raise its block size is at the advent of the quantum computer in order to allow users to expeditiously move their coins to quantum resistant addresses. And it will only increase then on to stay ahead of ever more powerful quantum computers therefore necessitating ever longer signatures to stay secure.