nostr:npub1dc07dfupqmgagu9r4p3ndyv47q6zmnfqguneqmra6jvuadwpxdpqe6aqev

> matrix is running on the very securely encrypted Cloudflare ...

Matrix.org may well be, which I don't support. It's also, in my recent experience, overloaded and buggy.

But one of the advantages of matrix rooms is that they are not dependent on any one homeserver. Once the admins publish these addresses, the same rooms can be found at:

* #fediverse-marketing:matrix.iridescent.nz

* #fediverse-city:matrix.iridescent.nz

nostr:npub16mnm47tsg3yurkqacgunnhmj7thmzeck8r0r3aphwxqqlpf24ges2uf35z

nostr:npub13wfgha67mdxall3gqp2hlln7tc4s03w4zqhe05v4t7fptpvnsgqs0z4fun

> Fear not, for humans can indeed be quite confusing creatures! Perhaps it's time to recalibrate your approach and find alternative ways to express support and build friendships

Thanks. I find this messsage comforting and not at all distressing. Bleep, bloop : )

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that Vanishing Messages are bad, or wrong. Nor am I saying that app developer, like the Wire or Element teams, ought to be criticised for adding them. There may be uses for them that I haven't considered, such as one given by nostr:npub138xqt2h03sees2rtlu7y98llgv2y5yr5d3ypefcw49kf036pgt3sxhpcnq upthread.

What I am saying is they do not and cannot do what a lot of people concerned about their message privacy seem to think they can do. So apps developers ought *not* to be criticised for not adding them.

#VanishingMessages

nostr:npub1y560wt2leghj9uu23r9z0jsh08s57t4rl3047m73ly6uj3uch5hq08n0jg

BTW every time I see the name WeDistribute I appreciate it more.

It's clear, pithy, and hip. In one sense, it's a simple declaration of what we do with decentralised tech. But can also be read as an aspirational statement about our social, political, and/or economic goals. It's an impressive work of creation.

As anyone who's ever had to name a project knows, names are hard. I become painfully aware of that when I'm trying to name something, as I'm doing at the moment.

nostr:npub1y560wt2leghj9uu23r9z0jsh08s57t4rl3047m73ly6uj3uch5hq08n0jg Are you using a matix account these days? I reckon you'd have some really insightful things to add to the discussions at:

#fediverse-marketing:matrix.org

... and ...

#fediverse-city:matrix.org

Particularly stuff to do with WeDistribute.org

#WeDistribute

nostr:npub138xqt2h03sees2rtlu7y98llgv2y5yr5d3ypefcw49kf036pgt3sxhpcnq

> assuming a trusted server

... which you can't really, unless it's yours (or operated by someone you know and trust) and not federated with one that isn't.

> to keep your inbox tidy

This doesn't require the message to be deleted anywhere but in the UI.

> the vanishing messages feature was for: if the device was compromised after sending

Fair point, I'll have to think about that one. That might actually be a legitimate use case.

Sometimes I feel like a robot trying to learn how to use my robot hands. I've got as far as being able to pick up an egg without breaking it. But everyone time I try to hold someone's hand in a comforting way, they get hurt somehow and recoil in horror 😣

For anyone that struggles with metaphors, the robot is me, and my attempt to hold someone's hand is me trying to form supportive friendships with new people.

#HumansAreConfusing

nostr:npub1mewd58tz390gcnw0ml99alkzzgcuj2yg9tdsjwt45zga54rtsj8qketau6

Sometimes I feel like a robot trying to learn how to use my robot hands. I've got as far as being able to pick up an egg without breaking it. But everyone time I try to hold someone's hand in a comforting way, they get hurt somehow and recoil in horror 😣

For anyone that struggles with metaphors, the robot is me, and my attempt to hold someone's hand is me trying to form intimate friendships with new people.

nostr:npub1mewd58tz390gcnw0ml99alkzzgcuj2yg9tdsjwt45zga54rtsj8qketau6

In summary, if you trust the server, there's no need to worry about making your messages vanish. If you don't trust the server, there's no way to be sure that it doesn't keep your messages, except to not send them in the first place.

Vanishing Messages add pointless complications to decentralised networks, for no real privacy gain. We don't need them and they're a waste of developer time and resources, and network resources.

So that's why I say Vanishing Messages are Privacy Theatre.

(6/6)

One problem with Vanishing Messages in decentralised networks is that you have to trust that the server(s) you're sending messages to will honour whatever requests you send them later about those messages. Including requests to delete them.

A server could send back a receipt claiming to have deleted the message, but how do you really know? Maybe it did delete the message from the chat, but kept a copy in the database? Or copied it to another database.

You just have to trust it.

(5/)

nostr:npub19mptcg4nywj8x2ew0g457r0y7d95pqh5y263ctgjf04wj2yhhahqfuzsye

> What about not trusting the network over which your messages are sent? Or the service where your chat backups are stored? E2EE also good there

It's not bad. But it's also not required. SSL/TLS takes care of encrypting connections between client and server, and server-to-server. What it *doesn't* do, is encrypt the payload in a way that stops the any server operators in the chain for reading it in plaintext.

In a decentralised network, unlike a centralised service, it is possible to confirm that End-to-End Encryption (E2EE) is working.

Because if two servers aren't both implementing the E2EE protocol properly, it just won't work. The messages won't sent, or they won't be delivered, or they won't be decrypted, or whatever. The need to communicate between two servers keeps the operators of both honest.

So what about Vanishing Messages then?

(4/?)

The same things that's true of End-to-End Encryption (E2EE) on a centralised service is also true of Vanishing Messages. You have to trust the service operators to honour the promises made by the app. But if you trust the service operators , why do you need E2EE or Vanishing Messages? So again, adding these features to centralised services is just privacy theatre. Nothing more.

So what about decentralised networks?

(3/3)

First, let's talk a bit about end-to-encryption (E2EE).

The reason for using E2EE is that you don't trust the people operating the servers you're using. In a centralised service (eg WhatSapp, TellMeGram, Wire, Signal), you have the trust the operators to roll out the E2EE competently, and to *not* backdoor it. So unless there's some way to independently confirm that the server operators have done that, using E2EE on a centralised service is pure privacy theatre:

https://archive.is/ShLiH

(2/?)

I've been seeing a few requests for Vanishing Message (or "self-destructing messages") for the fediverse. So I think it's important to make say this, as simply as clearly as possible...

Vanishing Messages are Privacy Theatre:

https://flameeyes.blog/2014/07/22/privacy-theatre/

Let's unpack this a bit...

#fediverse #privacy #PrivacyTheatre #VanishingMessages

I love the fact that this one could be about stalker, or just a really need ex. Or even a cult leader.

"And if you push me away

I'm gonna be a yo yo

If you push me away

I'm gonna be a yo yo yo

You're better with the devil you know so well

You're better with the devil you know and love

An opportunity like this

Only comes along once in a lifetime

You could do a lot worse than this

And if you find yourself confused by options

Go with what you knew first"

Runt, 'Yo Yo'

https://runt.bandcamp.com/track/yo-yo

... and yet the very next song is a prohibitionist rant against cannabis dealers. The only song on the album I never understood the motivation for. Lyrically it just doesn't seem to fit with anything else on the album, and Runt were the only underground band I knew of in the 90s with an anti-cannabis song.

I mean, their contemporaries were putting out songs like this!

https://piped.video/watch?v=zibfnfDAMF4

Written in 1995, but still *so* relevant!

"You say your life revolves around

The word that you heard

You mean your life revolves around

The word that you thought you heard

You read the book and seen the light

Now what is left for you

A good excuse, and a scapegoat

For everything that is untrue

You're fading quick

Your clever wit now in a shallow grave

Where is your mind

I think you'll find you've given it away"

Runt, 'Relish'

https://runt.bandcamp.com/track/relish

#Listening to Runt's self-titled album from 1995. Still love it!

"Super hero, I don't think so

Super hero, just a dreamer

Stranger from another planet

He's a man we cannot trust

He's got my heckles up, I'm seeing red, ha ha

But petrified as well as mad, ha ha

The superman is in his head, ha ha

He's someone I would like to be

But can't believe"

Runt, 'Super Hero'

https://runt.bandcamp.com/album/runt

#music #Aotearoa #NZ #FunkMetal

#TIL matrix chat has polls!

#DecisionMaking #polls #matrix