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frphank
47be0b2a89faaa66bc57f5c679203486da45660295cb3db3c2f38f4be8d8816e
Autopoietic. Scratching things from chaos. Homesteading the noösphere. Opportunity farmer: Reading things that are not yet on the page. Haskell. Dollars only, thanks.

Let's get started with a business that allows for zero savings for starters. Just breaking even would already be great. If there's room for savings later I'll look into that later.

The key concern here is that as a business I'll have to spend today and earn later, like buying a commercial ice machine for $3000 and selling iced coffee for the next couple of months to make my money back. Add interest if the machine was bought on a loan.

My income from iced coffee needs to be stable so I can estimate whether can sell enough iced coffee. If the price of iced coffee goes down much because of deflation I'm stuffed.

Fiat has done a reasonably good job at being stable. Could be better but Bitcoin has been much worse. So running a business on Bitcoin is a no-go.

With a business accepting lightning payments converting to fiat on the backend I have nothing to gain. Might as well accept fiat only.

How do you run your business? Do you accept lightning? Do you pay your suppliers in Bitcoin? How do you deal with inflation?

Yes the fiat price of Bitcoin has gone up. But why would it go any further. Depends on the misery and dreams of the naive masses who have a few dollars to spare to stack sats. If that's what you want to speculate on be my guest.

See there, if your economic theory about producers competing in some sort of price race to the bottom were true, you wouldn't have any money left to stack sats.

The line only needs to do better than inflation, that's true, but does it. Inflation is guaranteed, it's one of the measures central banks use to regulate the amount of currency in circulation. Anything else depends on the misery and dreams of some naive people.

You say you're both a producer and a consumer yet in your line of arguments so far you've taken the consumer side only (that's "you") whereas the producers that's "them".

And your economic world view favors the consumer. The producers, osteno, compete for the money of the consumer. I say we're more in a producer-favored world where consumers compete for the products and services of the producers.

A pure consumer as I believe you are, will, this is correct, eventually run out of resources i.e. money. However this could be far off in the future depending on the size of your inheritance or whatever. Long enough to create a false sense of security.

The reason you're here is to seek some assurance that the good consumer times will continue, ideally forever. You came here to receive confirmation of your preconceived notiones. Like a permant free lunch through Bitcoin growth or technological progress. However this is not the case.

Well, when running a business you will have to lower prices and face deminishing income for one.

With prices in Bitcoin fluctuating like that I wouldn't know how to plan financially as a business.

If you have a hard currency that can't be printed you'll have prices fluctuating with a fluctuating economy and that's really bad for any business. You really need stable prices. The central bank has some means (not great ones but better than Bitcoin) to put money into circulation or take it out of it.

As for technology, you'll get more for your money or it's less effort to earn the money in the first place, but you won't spend less. iPhones are a good example, you get more with every new model but the price doesn't go down.

Btw if you believe Bitcoin is a good investment, better than say a savings account, then go ahead buy Bitcoin. Like buying shares, real estate etc. whatever. But what does that have to do with the credit card. When you invest you don't spend and if one day you need to spend you sell assets for fiat and then spend that. Important: You don't count on having fiat and how much until you actually sell. Your day-to-day expense budgeting involves just fiat you actually have.

Because you mentioned a credit card and everyday spending it seemed you were wanting to do your expense budgeting in Bitcoin and were hoping that prices in Bitcoin would go down thanks to just fiat inflation. But if the fiat price of Bitcoin rises just thanks to inflation then Bitcoin prices of goods and services will just remain stable. So no free lunch.

I was assuming the second case. To clarify if $1000 buys you 1000 pounds of bread now, then in 6 months you will have $1060 worth of Bitcoin but the price of those 1000 pounds of bread will have gone up to $1060 too so you get the same amount of bread as before. Bread hasn't gotten cheaper for you as you were hoping.

This is of course for the ideal case of a stable currency. Bitcoin is fiction like Harry Potter or Santa Claus. It's not involved in any real world economic transactions involving bread or anything else you were thinking of using that credit card for. Dreams on the other hand can evaporate just like 7 year olds eventually realize Santa isn't real.

If you want to speculate on the dreams of nincompoops that are naive and miserable but have money to spare then go ahead.

Looks like you're a financially uneducated hick who with Bitcoin made a bad financial decision just like your uneducated parents made a bad financial Swiss franc decision.

Replying to Avatar Carl B Menger

I have yet to share my personal #Bitcoin journey, but I believe now is the right time to do so. It marks the beginning of my descent into the Bitcoin rabbit hole and, much like the Bitcoin White Paper itself, my story is closely tied to the financial crisis of 2008.

This account is deeply personal, laced with self-pity and a sense of stupidity. That's why I've kept it private and not even shared it with my closest friends, but I think it's important to share it now with you. Giving back to a community I received so much in the previous years. All too often, those who fall victim to the shortcomings of the fiat system internalize the guilt, unaware that they are being taken advantage of by a corrupt fiat system.

My parents, hardworking individuals who dedicated their lives to building their own business from scratch, had little time to acquire financial education. In the early 2000s, they were advised — like many companies and individuals in Austria — to finance their company/house with a Swiss franc loan. The arrangement was complex and opaque, involving multiple loan accounts and significant commissions for both the bank and our financial advisor. My parents, trusting the system, unknowingly became entangled in a speculative gamble, exacerbated by the euro's introduction and the franc's relative strength over time. It turns out that debt in a strong currency and income in a rapidly depreciating currency have only one outcome: Default over time.

As a result of the financial crisis of 2008, the Swiss National Bank could no longer suppress the upward pressure on the franc in 2014 and the fallout was inevitable. Overnight, my family faced a substantially larger loan burden than initially anticipated, to threaten us to file bankruptcy and lose everything we worked for in the previous decade. This devastating turn of events — driven by corrupt banking practices and greedy financial advisors — left an indelible mark on me. As a young man, witnessing my parents' hard-earned savings and efforts eroded by a system they trusted was enough to cement my distrust of financial institutions forever. At this point in time I made a promise to myself: Trust no one, educate yourself and verify.

A few years later, I discovered Bitcoin. It clicked immediately. Here was a decentralized, incorruptible solution to the very problem that had caused so much pain for my family. Bitcoin represented a chance to opt out of a fiat system riddled with perverse incentives and predatory practices. My family's experience — our suffering under the weight of a corrupt financial system — motivates me to advocate for Bitcoin adoption. For this reason, I will never trade my Bitcoin for fiat currency ever, no matter the fiat price. It represents more than wealth to me; it’s a symbol of resilience and justice, a way to honor the sacrifices my parents made.

Looking back, I am almost grateful for this painful chapter of my life. It woke me up and set me on a path I might not have found otherwise. Many people experience similar losses at the hands of the fiat system without even realizing it because the theft happens incrementally, through inflation and hidden costs. Fact is, that honest, hardworking individuals are being robbed every day — second by second — by a system designed to erode their purchasing power over time. Like my parents, but more gradually.

While it’s exciting to see Bitcoin’s fiat price increase, that is not its ultimate value. Bitcoin represents so much more. And I know, many others who HODL Bitcoin not for fiat wealth but for deeply personal reasons — reasons rooted in justice, independence, and freedom. For those of us who have been wronged by the current system, Bitcoin is not just an asset, it’s a revolution for a better future.

Yours forever thankful, Carl. 🧡

> As a result of the financial crisis of 2008, the Swiss National Bank could no longer suppress the upward pressure on the franc in 2014 and the fallout was inevitable.

Wait what? The value of fiat went *up*?? I thought central banks were these evil entities that steal by depreciating the value of money. Up is good down is bad.

So which one is it now, is up good or bad?

Nvidia shares get me dividends, real estate I can use for a shop or a factory or farming, silver can be turned into jewelry, cutlery, electronic things and a thousand other uses.