oh forgot one...

❌possible forced channel closes when tx fees are high on L1. Ouch.

https://iris.to/note1s3qf0p7d92pgevqnumu368agc8w55ml85f0v3zvd3meas3pqlqaqe79hc3

In what way?

Lightning:

❌much effort and maintenance to attain what is already inferior privacy vs monero

❌nodes w/ most liquidity = points of centralization

❌not final settlement

❌requires a 24/7 active node to not be rugged

❌hot wallet

❌lacks L1 security guaruntees

...and right now 90% of lightning users are using it with custodial solutions

"...the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required..."

From the abstract of the white paper and Satoshi himself

Because you lose custody. The whole point of Bitcoin is not having to trust intermediaries.

You can have even better privacy and retain custody with Monero.

It is also not mutually exclusive. You can save with Bitcoin, and transact with Monero. Use the right tools for the right jobs.

Yes, Monero is opaque verifiability that rests on well known and thoroughly tested multi-decades old cryptographic assumptions.

But using this as an argument against it is weak if you are not taking advantage of Bitcoin's transparency by manually auditing the supply yourself. Otherwise, what is the point of talking about transparency if you are just trusting your node (exactly as any monero node) and not taking advantage of it? No Bitcoiners do this. Potential supply bugs exist with both. https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/09/21/the-latest-bitcoin-bug-was-so-bad-developers-kept-its-full-details-a-secret/

L2 layers will always sacrifice core value props. Liquid, Fedimints, Lightning, Sidechains all trade away custody, final settlement, and/or decentralization. So it is still not a Monero replacement even if their mediocre privacy was improved.

If you just use Monero for it's utility (superior/easier privacy with cheaper/faster txs), and save with Bitcoin, the infinitismal inflation worry is pretty much moot.

And it is irrelevant to your question about decentralization.

19K reachable monero node -VS- 17k reachable bitcoin nodes:

https://monero.fail/map

https://bitnodes.io/

Wouldn't be surprised if xmr was more decentralized in mining as well because it is more accessible. All you need is general purpose consumer hardware that everyone has.

As long as Bitcoin remains a transparent ledger, it will always offer subpar privacy to Monero.

Any L2 privacy comes with a trade off of custody, final settlement, or centralization.

So I believe you are wrong. So much friction and pitfalls in staying reasonably private with Bitcoin. That is why Monero is slowly taking over DNMs.

Is it easier to hide mining with an ASIC (sound + energy draw) or blend in and mine on practically any general purpose consumer hardware?

I'm not saying Bitcoin will collapse or that Monero will overtake it, but that Monero operates better in the dark and in adversarial conditions more easily.

Great argument

You may now return to your safe bitcoin maxi space and close your eyes and plug your ears to any and all potential problems with bitcoin.

A Cypherpunk's Manifesto

Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world.

If two parties have some sort of dealings, then each has a memory of their interaction. Each party can speak about their own memory of this; how could anyone prevent it? One could pass laws against it, but the freedom of speech, even more than privacy, is fundamental to an open society; we seek not to restrict any speech at all. If many parties speak together in the same forum, each can speak to all the others and aggregate together knowledge about individuals and other parties. The power of electronic communications has enabled such group speech, and it will not go away merely because we might want it to.

Since we desire privacy, we must ensure that each party to a transaction have knowledge only of that which is directly necessary for that transaction. Since any information can be spoken of, we must ensure that we reveal as little as possible. In most cases personal identity is not salient. When I purchase a magazine at a store and hand cash to the clerk, there is no need to know who I am. When I ask my electronic mail provider to send and receive messages, my provider need not know to whom I am speaking or what I am saying or what others are saying to me; my provider only need know how to get the message there and how much I owe them in fees. When my identity is revealed by the underlying mechanism of the transaction, I have no privacy. I cannot here selectively reveal myself; I must always reveal myself.

Therefore, privacy in an open society requires anonymous transaction systems. Until now, cash has been the primary such system. An anonymous transaction system is not a secret transaction system. An anonymous system empowers individuals to reveal their identity when desired and only when desired; this is the essence of privacy.

Privacy in an open society also requires cryptography. If I say something, I want it heard only by those for whom I intend it. If the content of my speech is available to the world, I have no privacy. To encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy, and to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Furthermore, to reveal one's identity with assurance when the default is anonymity requires the cryptographic signature.

We cannot expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless organizations to grant us privacy out of their beneficence. It is to their advantage to speak of us, and we should expect that they will speak. To try to prevent their speech is to fight against the realities of information. Information does not just want to be free, it longs to be free. Information expands to fill the available storage space. Information is Rumor's younger, stronger cousin; Information is fleeter of foot, has more eyes, knows more, and understands less than Rumor.

We must defend our own privacy if we expect to have any. We must come together and create systems which allow anonymous transactions to take place. People have been defending their own privacy for centuries with whispers, darkness, envelopes, closed doors, secret handshakes, and couriers. The technologies of the past did not allow for strong privacy, but electronic technologies do.

We the Cypherpunks are dedicated to building anonymous systems. We are defending our privacy with cryptography, with anonymous mail forwarding systems, with digital signatures, and with electronic money.

Cypherpunks write code. We know that someone has to write software to defend privacy, and since we can't get privacy unless we all do, we're going to write it. We publish our code so that our fellow Cypherpunks may practice and play with it. Our code is free for all to use, worldwide. We don't much care if you don't approve of the software we write. We know that software can't be destroyed and that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down.

Cypherpunks deplore regulations on cryptography, for encryption is fundamentally a private act. The act of encryption, in fact, removes information from the public realm. Even laws against cryptography reach only so far as a nation's border and the arm of its violence. Cryptography will ineluctably spread over the whole globe, and with it the anonymous transactions systems that it makes possible.

For privacy to be widespread it must be part of a social contract. People must come and together deploy these systems for the common good. Privacy only extends so far as the cooperation of one's fellows in society. We the Cypherpunks seek your questions and your concerns and hope we may engage you so that we do not deceive ourselves. We will not, however, be moved out of our course because some may disagree with our goals.

The Cypherpunks are actively engaged in making the networks safer for privacy. Let us proceed together apace.

Onward.

Eric Hughes

Why is Monero a shitcoin if it offers critical utlity that Bitcoin does not and cannot with a transparent ledger? Cypherpunk history is all about the importance of privacy and anonymity.

And don't say L2s will replace xmr when any L2 comes with a trade-off of losing custody, final settlement, or decentralization.

You talk of hard money and shitcoins while XMR is currently scarcer in supply than Bitcoin, and offers utility that Bitcoin cannot if it remains a transparent ledger (Yes, even with L2 mediocre privacy you lose custody, final settlement, or decentralization as a trade-off: Liquid, Fedimints, Lightning, and Sidechains).

If you look at XMR as the digital analog of cash, and not a rival to Bitcoin (Look at Bitcoin as gold if you wish), then you would see it as a useful tool for private txs.

If you are shaking in your boots from the microscopic tail emission that asymptotically approaches 0% - Save in Bitcoin, spend in Monero, and that is essentially a moot point. No excuse.