#[0] I don't think that's what Michael is saying; I see his question as asking if from a utilitarian standpoint it might be that the Chinese people have done well, even if their leaders were harvesting the organs from some of them. I think the answer is maybe ya, probably - though it's an impossible equation to solve and that kind of "aggregate happiness" thinking leads to very dark outcomes. We can't know the counterfactual of what would have happened if the US elites did not collaborate with the Chinese elites. Would they have all died of starvation? would the CCP have collapsed?