Nostr Web Client

I'm a hardcore Bitcoiner and a dev. I also build noncustodial wallet software. I still don't think it matters if people use custodial wallets for zapping and I believe that those who worry so much about it are mostly concern larping.

How you zap is Insignificant. What's more important is to learn how to properly custody your savings with cold storage. Use a noncustodial LN phone wallet for medium-sized payments. The rest of small payments and tips is fine with custodial wallets. The risk of getting rugged is so much lower than the benefit of an incredible UX. And if the wallet uses ecash, you'll get the benefit of near-perfect privacy (working on that).

It's ok to not run a Lightning node. It's a terrible experience for most people.

sommerfeld 2y ago

Let's agree to disagree. I don't think you're taking into account the convenience slippery slop that will ultimately get users to use custodial wallets for everything, not just small payments.

Not to mention the protocol centralization risk you get when a handful of LN custodial providers control 99% of the LN tx volume. At some point, they can just do the same thing google did to email and the web. If the fringe minority don't follow their new specs, they are simply left behind. Fully captured.

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Discussion

calle 2y ago

If you put your savings into a custodial wallet, you're lost betond hope. It won't matter what maxis preach. Most people won't be so stupid, even if they are lazy. There are great safe alternatives for lazy people, like Muun.

sommerfeld 2y ago

What do you think will happen if on-chain fees spike forever and most people don't want to deal with constantly paying fees from and to their cold storage? I bet you they will just go all-in on their custodial wallet.

₿² 2y ago

You will always be able to move a pk in the meatspace

calle 2y ago

My view is that if Bitcoin fees will be too high for ordinary people and we haven't come up with good solutions for payments in the mean time (L2s), Bitcoin fails.

LN is doing pretty good so far. Channels should never be closed if not absolutely necessary, that still has a lot of room for improvements. You could even buy open channels without on-chain tx's (statechains).

Micah541 2y ago

So we may need perpetual issuance for security then. Maybe the sixth halving could be the last?

sommerfeld 2y ago

And I noticed you didn't comment on the protocol centralization risk.

What if WoS decided to deploy their own new bolt that would break cashu (just an example, substitute by any other feature you cherish)?

I saw that some weeks ago you complained Blockstream broke lnurl on CLN. Luckily, they are just a software provider, not a custodial service provider, so people can just use different LN software.

calle 2y ago

I could've forked CLN (others already did) to make it work again. I don't get the Cashu bolt reference.

sommerfeld 2y ago

My point is that you couldn't do that if WoS was behind the change. If they controlled 99% of LN transaction volume, your fork would be incompatible with most of the network.

The same way google can just make any change to web standards they want and if Firefox doesn't follow, most websites don't work on it. By adsorbing most market share, they essentially control an open protocol.

Such a thing is only possible with big custodial operators.

calle 2y ago

They can't control 99% of LN volume. That wouldn't be LN.

sommerfeld 2y ago

That's where I disagree. Im afraid that's where we are headed 😔.

Maybe not 99% on their own, but if they buddy up with alby, strike and cashapp, they get close to it.

calle 2y ago

I don't get it. Just spin up a LN node with Phoenix and you're ok. Why would that ever be not an option.

sommerfeld 2y ago

Just spin up your own mail server and send an email to a gmail account....

Oh wait, it went to spam, or worse, it wasn't even delivered and was just filtered out.

calle 2y ago

How do you filter out LN payments?

sommerfeld 2y ago

If you are a custodian, you have unlimited power to censor.

It's a small step for them to just generate invoices to pre-approved compatible wallets.

calle 2y ago

No you don't, that's not how LN works.

calle 2y ago

In LN the receiver doesn't know the origin of a payment. Either you accept LN payments or you don't. You can't discriminate (based on sender).

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 2y ago

gulag is internet prison !

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 2y ago

all above point is valid - here are facts n q

how much btc value will be there floating in 99% dominance of custodial wallet?

what does 100K roughly nerdy plebs doing when 250000 BTC is floating in ERC20 BEP20 AVAX other chains

5000 + BTC in LN maybe fraction few BTC is floating nostr. yes thinking od design is good - think how it reach to masses not just theoratical einestiens of the world

they will always 1doctor/10000patience ratio in hospitals - 1pleb/100000users if bitcoin ever gets started to be used by masses or it remina confined in echo chambers of nerds physicists plebs.

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 2y ago

simplification is key sell technology to layman users also meeting decentralization n self custody function. there got to be balance n tradeoff for practical use on field.