Nostr Web Client

There's a BIG ELEPHANT in the Nostroom many of us are avoiding.

I'm really digging Nostr. You probablly are too. And I'm mostly digging Lightning ⚡️ and Zaps. Except one big inconvenient purple elephant.

Some of these wallets we're using don't (seem to) pass the basic tests of Bitcoin.

Many of you know this but are avoiding it.

Wallet of Satoshi is fun. And has GREAT UX. The Zap icon, the Green screen 😗🤌 amazing.

But if the App we're to disappear tonight, how many people would just lose all their Sats? Poof. I think more than we might think.

Maybe we justify this because it's a relatively low amount in our wallet. But still...

Not your KEYS? NOT YOUR COINS. Repeat it!

This is fundamental Bitcoin practice.

How Lightning works under the hood is complicated. I like that. It seems battle tested and works. But there are issues when your Sats live locked up by an entity that you don't have full access and control to if it were to cease to exist. How do it get settled back to L1 in your control?

We should do better. We know better.

Transferring LNBTC back to the L1 main chain should be efficient too - seamless at best. Submarine/atomic swaps also seem like a lazy solution. Pegging one asset for the other and swapping seems redundant/convoluted. Am I missing something?

Something seems incomplete with Lightning.

I like the ethos of TEST IT AS YOU BUILD IT 🤙✌️...

But here's a sobering reminder that the core and true principles of Cryptography and the Cypherpunks were labored on for good reasons.

Caveat. I don't desire to run a LN node or a pruned one either. If you're a back ender and can explain something I've missed or overlooked, please enlighten! This is intricate stuff.

Keep going all... just shining a light on the principles that ought to stay enshrined. ✨️ ⚡️✌️🤙

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Discussion

nobody 2y ago

Learning on the fly. Submarine swaps are smart contracts that enable L1 to LN and vice versa in a trustless manner while also verifying the address contents (coin amount).

I can't verify the backend code but this is how it's been explained in the Bitcoin Manual.

Can anyone understanding the Math and cryptography vouch for this? Do submarine swaps go between L1 and 2 seamlessly, trustlessly and easily?

Andrej designSats 2y ago

HODL stack - hardware wallet

SPEDN stack - Phoenix, OBW

ZAP change - WoS, Alby,... pick your custodial hell.

Custodial is for tiny amounts or only to receive. NOT STORAGE

Yes, you will have small amount at risk, but its insignificant.

nobody 2y ago

Agree mostly.

Custodial is still the wrong way to do Bitcoin. Fundamentally.

Bert 2y ago

It is, but standing at the bitcoin beer drafts with tor issues was too cumbersome over the past years 😉. Therefore used muun, WoS and blue with lightning a lot. 2022 I reached many thousands of micropayments, which proved how well it’s working for velocity of money. When my own Lightning node failed to deliver solid payments even in October last year with >50% of the payments failing at bitcoin Amsterdam. And lately also with failed payments with Nostr. I would like to stay operating via tor. Does anyone see a solution for private payments with lightning that are not slow within self custody. Using tor and not using clearnet?

nobody 2y ago

Woah. This is my point. LN is too complex on the front end to be useful AND adhere to the core principles of cypherpunk cryptography.

We give up custody for ease of use and HOPE and TRUST the sats don't get rugged.

😶

Ugh.

Andrej designSats 2y ago

Im sure its not the only example of trusting someone with your money you practice :)

Bert 2y ago

Especially small amounts 😂 but I still would love to see better solutions for the sovereigns though 😊 so much already happening, it’ll come.

Andrej designSats 2y ago

Grashams law. Cheap money moves faster. And sats on WoS or Alby or any other custodial hole are fiat.

I use alby to receive onto LN address and on my deskto but zap with OBW or Phoenix.

Its pure lazyness to do 2 clicks intead of scanning qr with phone.

Bert 2y ago

I do believe with breez and phoenix we’re on the right track though. It’s just great to see how much is still being developed. With broad bolt 12 implementation a lot might change toward proper self custody solutions. And looking forward to a swift tor in the future. This would take most of the issues away.

Satimoto 2y ago

I think the Breez SDK will bring with it a big swing towards non-custodial. It’s really simple to integrate it as a developer. Gives the user a non-custodial virtual node on Greenlight, Inbound liquidity with LSP services and ability to share node access to multiple apps on the same device.

Satimoto 2y ago

…and you will get bolt12 too as Blockstream Greenlight runs on CLN.

steepdawn974 2y ago

Is it already part of the SDK?!

Satimoto 2y ago

Ah no, it’s still on the roadmap

steepdawn974 2y ago

So, wallets that will be backed by the Breez SDK (such as Breez itself, i would guess) would offer all its users a native reusable LN payment code (=bolt12 offer), right?

And Zaps could go to Offers, instead of/in addition to LN addresses. Huge

sperry 2y ago

Yep, give it a "use case" and often brains leak out. Chasing yield, etc. Zaps are fun, but..... One custodial sat rug could set this space back a tad.

nobody 2y ago

I agree with all of this.

Tough to move forward considering all this.

Not all of the POS, NFT etc is crap tho. It's not as pure as BTC but some use cases are interesting.

Just want non custodial, easy to use, L1 to L2 seamless method. On chain would be ideal. But if off chain payment rail then fine too.

nobody 2y ago

Almost like we deserve to get rugged by WoS to remind us of a crucial lesson about trust.

sperry 2y ago

Yup.

Not your keys, not your cheese. #[1]

⚡🄹🄰🄺🄴⚡ 2y ago

Do we have an alternative? I love WoS.

NEW1 2y ago

Remember to connect it here for zaps

⚡🄹🄰🄺🄴⚡ 2y ago

I use WoS to distribute zaps and Lntip to recieve.

NEW1 2y ago

Does Lentil have a LNURL for LUD-06 so you can get instant zaps

⚡🄹🄰🄺🄴⚡ 2y ago

Very thoughtful insight as I feel MANY of us use WoS. I still believe it to be very useful, fast and beginner friendly. But they are right... Not your keys, not your coins. 🤔

#[0]

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

You had me until you said you had no desire to run a node. 😆 If you don’t want to put in the work, you don’t deserve to reap the benefit

nobody 2y ago

Sort of agree. But technology shouldn't need to be hard and complicated on the front and back end to be useful.

Not sure why you equate it that way.

Adoption doesn't happen if this stuff doesn't become seamless and easy.

Visa makes their UX and UI ridiculously easy.

LN should be moving in this direction too.

nobody 2y ago

Without sacrificing you know... the core cryptography principles.

𝖋𝖎𝖆𝖙𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖎𝖊𝖗 (¯`◕‿◕´¯) 2y ago

There is already a solution to the “problem” you just refuse to acknowledge it. Instead of complaining, learn about running a node, it is not as hard as you think and Running a node is the way to ensure bitcoin survives long term.