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Luhansk declared autonomy and requested assistance from the Russian Federation way back in November of 2004, and Donetsk put it to a referendum.

But if you want to keep those regions full of Russians, oppress their use of their language and their church, and kill all the Russians, go ahead. I think you should cut off the foot with gangrene rather than let it kill your entire nation. But you do you.

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago 💬 2

First of all, I hope its just a typo and not intentional silent misinformation and you wanted to say 2014 instead of 2004

Second, if you trace the events from the beginning of 2014 (but its rather be started from at least 2010 but rather even 2004) — with Crimea invasion and annexation — which is pretty hard to research today I have to admit due to rusian propaganda spam and poor Ukrainian info exposure in english — you would found out that by 2014 eastern rusian speaking regions were the richest, the most subsidized by central govt and their interests were by far more important than those from central and western parts of Ukraine, so all those claims that rusian speaking people were oppressed are completely insane to me as a rusian speaking person living in the closest big Ukrainian city to the rusian border, I still cant figure out how that propaganda sticked in so quickly and doe so long

Third, if you actually find out who were at the roots of those “requests” you can only see rusians intel spies with moscow residence who know nothing about donbas who actually think Donbas is a city , not a region

And the most important. Even if some want a change against international laws (remember that opressions rusians in Ukraine can always leave Ukraine and go to rusia because rusians have a county rusia federation and there is no nation like DPR/LPR). AND if it is allowed silently to be enforced by violence, then what in the world can keep me from coming to your house, kicking you out by force and claiming your home is mine now caused I like it and spend 15 minutes there?

Is this the world YOU want to live in?

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Mike Dilger ☑️ 7mo ago 💬 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events/2004_November_26

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago

Yeah, thats why the incestigation should be started from 2004 or even earlier. There is no more to all of that than clickbait headlines

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago 💬 1

My last question to you after which I think it should be clear either for you or me where each other stands

So you think that small groups should be allowed to “request autonomy” at any point in time. I can understand it (if you are outside of those groups)

And I believe you think that Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk should be allowed to go to rusia peacefully. And I assume you believe that in this case there could be chances for peace and love between all parties and its bad Ukraine who refused to follow this path. I can’t agree of course but I can understand this point from an outsider.

But now rusians are claiming for Zaporizhya and Kherson at least and would claim for Kharhkiv and Kyiv too if they would not be killed

Do you still believe its all about peoples identification and not about imperialists trying to grab with violence anything they are capable of?

Mike Dilger ☑️ 7mo ago 💬 1

In general, I side with smaller groups against larger groups that oppress them... all the way down to the individual. So I side with Northern Ireland against the UK. I side with Palestine against Israel, with Catalan against Spain, with all the many nations captured by the Russian Empire against the Russian Empire. With Ukraine against Russia (even though I often have practical advice that might sound like I'm on the other side).

> And I believe you think that Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk should be allowed to go to rusia peacefully. And I assume you believe that in this case there could be chances for peace and love between all parties and its bad Ukraine who refused to follow this path. I can’t agree of course but I can understand this point from an outsider.

It seems to me to be a way to end the war, even if the bad guys win. It doesn't seem like you can win. But maybe I'm wrong. If the US, Germany, France, and the UK decide to join the war, then you could win. But of course that would be so much bigger of a war that I think it is also a bad path forward.

> Do you still believe its all about peoples identification and not about imperialists trying to grab with violence anything they are capable of?

Both.

Russia definitely has imperial ambitions. They have said as much. Their main purpose is to capture and control regions that could be effectively used against them, for strategic reasons. That doesn't mean it is "right", but it is good to understand the enemy, to understand why they do what they do. Ukraine is how Moscow was invaded every single time Moscow was invaded throughout history. And controlling the Black Sea, not just for their own access to Sevastopol, but also to deny access to Ukraine, gives them more strategic control of the region. But I'm not on their side. I don't think they are right. And if they can be pushed back then that is a better outcome.

But if the US and NATO use Ukraine to attack Russia, that is a much worse outcome. Maybe that is not what NATO intends, but a lot of people suspect this ambition. Because of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_dilemma nobody is right or wrong on this point, nobody can possibly know the truth, and everybody will act in their own defense. So we cat at least understand why Russia does this, even if we oppose it.

I don't think Russia would take Kyiv or Lviv because that would be like trying to swallow a porcupine. I think it is hard enough to get the people of the Donbass region to see themselves as Russians and not as oppressed Ukrainians.

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago 💬 1

> It seems to me to be a way to end the war, even if the bad guys win. It doesn't seem like you can win.

So you think that giving away Luhansk, Donetsk and Crimea to rusia is a to long term stable peace right? So please answer then where are Zaporizhya and Kherson at least in this equation then? What makes you think appeasing aggressor THIS TIME is different?

I tell you more though, you are not alone in this thinking. A lot of Ukrainians thought that losing Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk is fine between 2016 and 2022. And they were actually on their own. And where did it lead us? Do you truly believe that its something wrong done by Ukrainians happened in 2022 that triggered full scale invasion and not just rusia felt they are ready another time

What makes you think they would like to stop if each time their aggression is rewarded?

Security dilemma is complete shit. You say things I don’t like, it means that you are in some way a threat to me, then it should be justified if I kill you just for you to not make it first in theory in a distant future? Makes no sense and eventually it means only one person on the planet must survive. And the answer to that are international laws. Which of course are not perfect, but the best we have today

Mike Dilger ☑️ 7mo ago 💬 1

You don't seem to have a very good grasp on geopolitics or why this war is happening.

The US intends to remain the only global superpower, the hegemon. In order to do that, they must defeat China both economically and militarily. But if they went after China first, all the smaller countries in support of China would make that a very hard fight. So they have to start with the smaller countries and work their way up. The US has perfected "soft power" where they use deception (news media) to trick a nation's people into voting for their preferred candidate. If that doesn't work, they bomb them (or they have Israel do it). This has happened now in about 20 - 30 countries mostly around the middle east, but it (CIA operations) has happened in Ukraine multiple times around elections. After they capture Iran, I believe they will go after India. And then Russia via it's former SSR states, which they have been setting up for a long time. And finally China.

In December, Putin asked Biden if Ukraine would be added to NATO (an anti-Russia MILITARY alliance right on their doorstep!) and Biden told him it was up to Ukraine. Putin took that as meaning that it would. So in February he took actions to put a stop to it. Actions that he threatened to take over and over again throughout the prior 25 years as documented in countless places, red lines which NATO crossed and Russia didn't retaliate to. Finally Russia feeling like a boiled frog took decisive action, even as they didn't want to... they were cornered at that point.

Ukraine didn't do anything wrong, except be dumb about geopolitics, and make decisions that were unwise given the context. Ukraine is just a pawn in a much larger war that you don't seem to be aware of.

Taiwan will probably be a theatre of war in the next decade some time. And they will call it Chinese aggression. And that will be correct, but will represent the less interesting half of why China will feel the need to take control of Taiwan: to hold back the military aggression of the United States.

That is my view, based on lots of data. But I'm not an expert in geopolitics, more of a curious hobbyist. I've heard "Provoked" by Scott Horton is a good book explaining the Russia Ukraine war... but of course you won't read it. You will remain in your world of anger and simple explanations.

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago 💬 2

I have to admit, it went quickly from “people wanted to be a part of rusia and Ukraine just had to let them go” to “its not about Ukraine but only US”

Thanks a lot for sharing your detailed view. Your views are full of ignorance since you have this privilege to sit back and relax, which is completely normal human behavior. And I’m not here to educate you or change your mind, just offering an opinion on a subject from one who is actually aware of it

I will leave you with 3 facts to use in any way you want:

1. Often times things are much simpler than people want them to be

2. Biden doesn’t kill Ukrainians. pootin doesn’t kill Ukrainian. And even not patrushev is killing Ukrainians. Simple dudes Smirnov and Borisov and alike are actually killing Ukrainians and committing genocide. Most of them haven’t even heard the word “geopolitics”

3. rusians desire to kill every Ukrainian is older than the US

Mike Dilger ☑️ 7mo ago

I will make a very important post about how to tell the truth from misinformation. You should read it after I post it.

Mike Dilger ☑️ 7mo ago 💬 2

As to matters of fact, I am at a disadvantage. I can only argue from what I believe is true. And that information is certainly likely to be corrupted through propaganda efforts given we are in what people call 'the fog of war'. So I will accept your versions of the facts given that you live there and I don't. And I'm sorry if I inadvertently spread any propaganda or misinformation. But where we disagree on facts and I still think I'm right, I'll try to find sources.

I don't really have time for debating, nor the inclination. But I am a curious person still.

I guess Russian language was taken out of schools. And the Russian Orthodox Church was banned because it was seen as a tool of the Kremlin. You can see how people would have opinions on both sides of those facts.

I don't believe "might makes right." Nor do I believe in stupidly defending your rights when you know it will get you killed. If you came to take my home by force and I couldn't defend myself, I would find another place to live. But of course I would leverage my relationship with the NZ government to get you kicked out.

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago

Just some facts from the ground FYI: rusian language at school and orthodoxes at churches were completely fine and were the majority across Ukraine until the full scale invasion

After 2022 yes those started slowly to get away both from top by govt and bottom by average ppl in their 20s, 30s and 40s starting speaking Ukrainian at home even though they dont consider it to be their native language and moving their wedding rings from right hand to the left - just to be less similar to rusians

So if you aim for the truth, remove those propaganda point on language an church from the equation

Viktor Vsk 7mo ago

Here is the freshest meme about language from today you will have to translate on your own