New Venmo fees. Crazy thing is there are some lightning node operators charging comparable fees for routing payments. Does bitcoin actually fix this?
Discussion
Yup, because you or I could undercut those fees if we wanted to.
Not without having adequate liquidity and technical knowledge to run a routing node. Most people don’t.
pretty confident that there are more people who are capable of running a LN node than there are people capable of bootstrapping a tradfi Venmo competitor. Not to mention the reduced friction of "adopting" a new routing node (i.e. zero friction) vs adopting a new tradfi payments app.
pretty confident that there are more people who are capable of running a LN node than there are people capable of bootstrapping a tradfi Venmo competitor. Not to mention the reduced friction of "adopting" a new routing node (i.e. zero friction) vs adopting a new tradfi payments app.
That's like saying you could undercut Venmo too. You just need to go through whatever licensing process Venmo went and have the people, infrastructure and knowledge to run the business.
You don't honestly think those are the same, right?
A) one is a completely free fee market on an open payment protocol with bearer asset finality
B) one is a highly regulated market of closed payment platforms layered on top of more highly regulated closed platforms/custodians
What's the friction for a user migrating from Venmo to Cash app? High and you have to convince your peers to make the switch also.
What the friction for a user when routing a LN payment through a different route? Zero. You don't even know it's happening.
Thats one aspect, I could go on and on... They are not remotely similar.
3% is highway robbery. Wise charges fractions of a %.
I keep saying this,and I understand it's tough to swallow for bitcoiners, but we do not have a payments problem with fiat, for the most part.
3% for Venmo to update their internal centrally controlled database for each transaction is insanity. Bitcoin addresses the centrally controlled part and has some technical advantages over fiat payments systems, but for most people until they can see the benefit firsthand they will just stick with what they know, like Venmo, and swallow the fees as a “new normal.” And in the past couple years of using lightning I’ve seen the fees creeping up on the payments I make, so I don’t really think Lightning will fix the fees issue, even though it does help to mitigate the centrally controlled issue.
#cashu
There is nothing preventing cashu mint operatiors from charging fees, and in fact you should expect that they will when it’s widely adopted.
sure. run your own mint or node or pay fees for someone else to run. makes sense. there's no option to run your own venmo
I don’t disagree. My point is simply that Bitcoin/lightning/cashu won’t really solve for the fees associated with making payments the way people have touted. There is a cost to running a node (which is required to run a cashu mint) so either the node operator will eat the cost, offset it via direct fees, or subsidize the cost of the node through other products/services offered. There are undeniable technical advantages of using bitcoin systems, so I’m not saying it’s not preferable. Just that the low fees aren’t a given just because it’s not a fiat based system.
absolutely. i'm actually glad to see the venmo fees. there's no way my normie venmo friends would consider using alternatives as long as venmo is free. but if there's a cost associated with a venmo tx, that creates an opportunity to orange pill
There aren't any nodes charging 30,000 ppm!
Lightning will get cheaper as more node runners start using liquid to rebalace their nodes. LN fees go up as on-chain fees go up because they need to cover their costs. 100-ish sat rebalances go a long way in fixing that.
Noticed this too. These fees are as high as card networks’.