any reason why whirlpool with sparrow is slow to remix? i’ve had it running for the better part of 5-days and it has only mixed utxo’s at best twice 🤔 did i not pay a high enough fee at the beginning, or is this just the speed of the process?
Discussion
It’s slow AF. Use JAM - more expensive but much faster and better mixing
JAM? is that joinmarket?
Yes mate
Any trade-offs in terms of privacy here? I’m just about to do a bit of my own research, but I always thought of Whirlpool as “gold standard” in terms of its privacy - but yeah, feels like maybe the liquidity isn’t there (in the pool I’m in at least)?
How has Join Market solved the liquidity issue? It seems newer so I wouldn’t expect more people using it?
Yes they’ve solved liquidity but the coinjoin will be 8/9/10 paths.
Currently paying about 50-60k Sats per whack to get things in next block but you can dial down fee rates if you’re happy to do things slower.
Ben nostr:npub1rxysxnjkhrmqd3ey73dp9n5y5yvyzcs64acc9g0k2epcpwwyya4spvhnp8 has a good tutorial if you want to know more https://youtu.be/FbyjG2upGO8
yeah, i just watched that entire video, it looks a little more complicated than sparrow / whirlpool, nice UI, but it’s not as simple as like pay one fee and wait - sort of seems like you have to keep making transactions, and keep paying that fee
i think i just need to become a bit more comfortable with the fee structure and i’ll be all good though
when he looks at the outputs it’s interesting how they aren’t all the same value, there’s a mix of matching values
i did a quick search on samourai twitter to see what they mention about joinmarket (because they usually don’t beat around the bush when it comes to criticising shit)
they seem to place it below whirlpool but above samaurai, almost feels like their opinion might be “if you’re not going to whirlpool, probably should use joinmarket”
i think the only concern my simple brain could make sense of was that joinmarket reuses liquidity, so i think whirlpool is waiting for fresh liquidity to remix, but joinmarket you could technically be mixing with the same handful people over and over, so it’s not seen really as a gain to the anonymity set
could be completely wrong there tho, that was just what i could gather from a quick look, i’ll keep looking
Why is it slow?
I don’t know. In my reading apparently all subsequent mixes are slower because you’re coinjoining with others who have paid the fees (you only pay for initial mix) but it’s so slow you’d think there’s like 3 people a week using the service.
Yep, similar experience as above. I’ve had it sitting there trying to remix for like the better part of a week and the most mixes a UTXO has is two (2).
I’m guessing it’s a liquidity problem?
I know you get decent privacy gains just after a single mix, but I was I do feel like a 10+ would feel a lot better, at this rate I wouldn’t even have 10 mixes after like two months 🤨
You can use Wasabi wallet for coinjoins and remix whenever you want since you pay for your own mining fees. You won't have to pay the coordinator any extra fees for remixing though.
i’ve heard some mixed opinions about wasabi’s mixing process, but i’m unsure if there’s any substance to those claims - if i was to step outside of whirlpool i’d probably try JAM (joinmarket) because that seems pretty gooooood
i think there’s a bit of a question mark next to wasabi and JAM around mixing constantly into the exact same liquidity (where as that’s less / not possible in whirlpool)
again, i’m no expert so i could be wrong in every single thing i’ve said there
It’s just what it is. You only pay for the first mix, that’s why that one goes through fast. After that you’ll have to wait. It’s a trade off compared to Wasabi but you get more mixes for the same price if you want. Theoretically you can mix forever. I was waiting for 2 months to get 7 to 8 mixes for each UTXO. It were like 20 UTXOs or so if I remember correctly
makes sense - i’ve been assured that even after one mix your privacy is like significantly improved anyway, and adding extra remixes doesn’t necessarily help your privacy all that much 🤔
That’s wrong imo. More mixes is obviously better. And because it’s free it’s a no brainer for me to do at least 5. coinjoin mixes deteriorate over time (because of people handling their UTXOs in a wrong way) and if you have more mixes the deterioration is slower or sometimes even prevented. Also a very near feature in whirlpool is that even if you just wait for the mix but are not selected, you anonymity increases. If you are hodling for the future your time preference should be low anyways, so why not wait? The only reason I see is that it’s in a hot wallet but apparently there is no incident of funds being lost due to a hack in Sparrow.
asked AI and it said:
“one mix is technically enough to break all deterministic links with your coins' history. However, getting more mixes increases the anonymity set and supplies liquidity to the mixing pools, offering a faster mixing experience for other users. So, while one mix provides a certain level of privacy, multiple remixes enhance your overall privacy”
so that’s the way i’ve heard it before “breaks all deterministic links with your coins’ history” - the way i interpret that is something like “it gives you plausible deniability”
but then, as you mention, the subsequent remixes just would mean that everything gets even more confusing on the blockchain, and the chances of your privacy “by random chance” being unwound is much lower i’d assume
guess i’ll have to wait a few months for ~5ish remixes then 🥴 you’re correct in assuming my reasoning for remix time concerns is hot wallet related
but good to know it’s just a slow process and my node / sparrow isn’t broken or something! 👍🏼