Replying to Avatar Scoundrel

I remember Verita I think said that once Nostr users have to deal with stuff they don't like, they are going to implement pretty strong censorship and isolation, just like with the fediverse. If someone doesn't have the most vanilla beliefs then their notes will be rejected by the majority of relays. For an extreme compatison, take a look at the "pediverse", a collection of ActivityPub instances with a whole bunch of pedophilia posts. If the only place where your notes aren't ignored by relays is a small archipeligo of relays then how is Nostr any different from ActivityPub or Mastadon?

That's the prediction and criticism as I remember it. I think the prediction makes a lot of sense. Everyone has a different idea of what speech and free speech are, and I expect that the people involved with Nostr won't see any issue with cutting out any notes that don't meet those subjective standards.

Where I differ from Verita is in the idea that this outcome wouldn't be meaningfully different from ActivityPub's circumstances. For me, I used to have a niche community of outcasts whom I may not have trusted to accept me, but whom I at least trusted to insult me to my face. And then I lost the ability to post to that community, with not so much as a warning or a "you've been banned" message. To this day, none of the users have a clue that something even happened.

When I look around on the fediverse and the rest of the internet, I see plenty of other platforms that I can see myself trusting and that I think would allow me to post freely. However, I know that no matter what, I will never feel right posting on a platform like that. If I continued posting on sites where third parties can wield absolute control over the ability for two users on the platform to interact, I would get a nasty feeling in my gut. It doesn't matter how much I trust the site and it's administration because I need to go by a different standard now.

This is speculative until nostr actually attracts a large enough group of people who aren't libertarians. I have a feeling that most relay operators and devs will be quite welcome to have some sort of variety of political ideology and content here. I suppose this hasn't been tested yet.

I think paedophilia content will not be accepted and it think it should be blocked.

But I don't think left / right wing communities would be welcomed. However I see absolutely no interest in left or right wing people joining nostr in any significant numbers any time soon.

I do wonder what relay operators and client devs would do in the very real possible scenario of the British government shutting them down with legal threats and fines for hosting right wing views.

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It's easy to run your own relay. I run mine on a VPS that costs about $30 annually. Even if other relays don't accept my notes, that relay always will. Many clients already support outbox, so the need for big main relays is getting to be less.

This isn't even an issue if your not worried about wide availability and just want your own community. Just have a relay for your community.

Sorry for the late reply, but if all we care about are users we already know and if we are all willing to run our own relays then there is no difference in censorship resistance between Nostr and Mastadon.

Heck, if you aren't worried about wide availability then you don't need even need it to be a microblogging platform; just use something like Wordpress and make an ordinary blog.

The advantage of Nostr is that the ability to discover and interact with a new user is not up to a third party administrator. It's up to the users themselves being lucky enough to win the relay roulette, choosing a relay that aligns with their values and interests and displays the other's notes. This still is not even close to ideal, but it is currently far better than any other platform when it comes to connecting users and being able to find posts about things you are interested in.

You always own your notes on Nostr, Not so on fedi. Outbox will solve a lot of these issues, once the major clients (Damus & Primal) implement it that will be a huge boost. Nostr is still early in development (3 years compared to mastadons 10), so there's time to develop other ways of transmitting notes between users. I remember using identi.ca 15 users ago, federated networks have come a long way since then. Nostr isn't in its final form either.

Damus and Primal aren't doing outbox yet?

The outbox model is great for user based note aggregation, but it is absolutely useless for topic based note aggregation. Personally, I very rarely care what users my notes come from. What I care about is what topics the notes are about. I believe that being able to use relays with your values and relays supporting notes on a given topic is far more important than being able to find a relay that supports notes from a user you like.

I wouldn't count on "[N]otes and [O]ther [ST]uff over [R]elays" to transmit notes in other ways. I believe the direction Nostr needs to go is toward relay auditing and transparency. Unfortunately I haven't heard anyone else advocating for this. I don't believe that self sovereignty advocates on Nostr fully understand the assignment here.

Run your own relay.

Run your own blog. Run your own ActivityPub instance. If all you care about is being able to store your thoughts on an internet box that nobody else will ever visit without specifically looking for it then Nostr provides nothing new.

I don't know why you keep repeating that Nostr allows you to own your own notes. Yes, Nostr is yet another platform that allows this. Why are you picking here and now to emphasize this point? Did I say something to contradict that point? If users are expected to run their own relays then what makes Nostr special?

Thanks for participating in this conversation, especially since you say you found it boring. I found it very interesting.

It's just the same old boring points. I can't fix your complaints, so I don't feel like continuing a useless conversation. No hard feelings, it's just pointless and a waste of my time. ✌️

Are we talking about the same thing here? What points did I make that are so boring to you? Everything I said was fascinating to me.

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Hi 👋

See that's the thing: I AM talking about Libertarians. Libertarians are just as arbitrary as anyone else with their speech definitions. They all gladly support a variety of political ideology and content, but some people's beliefs and posts conveniently won't meet these operators' standards for "political ideology" or "content".

Go ahead and tell me your subjective opinions about what counts as free speech. You say that pedo content should be blocked; do you consider pedo content to be speech?

I think Nostr is more than prepared for the attention of individual nations. I am skeptical about several parts of the Nostr protocol, but when it comes to the kind of legal threat you wonder about, it is clear to me that Nostr was designed with that as a central consideration. The answer is that people will migrate their servers to countries that are more free and the network will be unaffected.

I'm not much of a libertarian, nor a free speech maximalist. I'm not sure I'm all that interested in that discussion either really tbh. I'm not sure what nostr people would argue along those lines of it being an iteration of free speech. I'm totally ok with paedo content being blocked.

I can see your point that political ideologies (both left and right) being potentially unwelcome, but there is the opportunity for people to make clients and host relays. I don't really know much about the infrastructure of Nostr tbh and I'm not going to pretend I do. I also don't see this happening any time soon, if it does happen at all.

The right wing fairly ok on twitter, and a lot of the left. Perhaps not happy, but at least not extremely disgruntled, or perhaps left and right are equally disgruntled but not budging from twitter lol. (And the libs have bluesky ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯). So I don't really think it'll be something to worry about now/near future.