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It's hard to read through all that legal crap, so I might have missed some hidden spots.

First of all the word "Bitcoin" is not mentioned in the entire document, they only refer to "crypto", hence we're safe 😉 .

Then article 31b states the obligation of "crypto asset service providers" to verify the destination of source of funds when interacting with "self-hosted" wallets. That's not new, governments in the EU have been bullying on ATMs and exchanges to KYC their clients at least since 2020. I wonder if relai app would be affected by this new regulation.

So far I haven't seen any mentioned about individuals transacting P2P.

Sjors Provoost 1y ago

I don't see anything that directly impacts p2p either, just the on and off ramps. There does seem to be a requirement of surveillance of what coins do before and after which can have a chilling effect. That's not new, just worse because it's the law rather than 'voluntary' (arguably illegal, because GDPR) behavior by exchanges.

31b is new in the same sense: some companies already demanded address verification but this is illegal under GDPR because you can't collect data without a legal basis. Bitonic was forced to do this by the Dutch central bank. They went to court and won. Other companies are to cowardly to do the same and the privacy regulators don't have time to fine them for knowingly violating GDPR. The difference is that this new law provides the missing legal basis.

Anyway that's my understanding so far which could be wrong.

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Discussion

captjack 🏴‍☠️✨💜 1y ago

if u cannot use any coin from self-custody onchain with ANY OTHER LEGAL REG BIZ in EU what P2P accomplish ?

ThyLobster 1y ago

When is this to come into effect and will it be active restrospectively? Just wondering if I should mix my coins today before it goes into effect.

Sjors Provoost 1y ago

Laws are generally not retroactive. But here's the thing: if you mix your coins now and send them to an exchange in 5 years, they might freeze them and ask annoying questions - because that's what that law forces them to do. That's already a risk today.

Sjors Provoost 1y ago

In other words: the duty to do compliance stuff is not retroactive. But the compliance people can look as far back in history as they see fit.

techjunkie 1y ago

Use trustless swaps (with liquid) before going to a centralized exchange to offramp or deposit with lightning. Take a USDT loan with your btc as collateral (hodlhodl) and use that to offramp. And do it only if you really need to make use of the fiat surveillance network.

Sjors Provoost 1y ago

You're still assuming presumption of innocence exists. It doesn't for AML/KYC. You're presumed guilty if they can't fully trace your coins.

techjunkie 1y ago

I doubt they will ever be able to implement and enforce this kind of totalitarian detailed complex massive surveillance and chain analysis and interrogation processes but we’ll see what 🤡-world comes up with next. 🍿 Worst case we’ll exit the EU.

Sjors Provoost 1y ago

If by "we" you mean bitcoiners, then perhaps yes. But if you mean the Dutch then you should realize that this proposal could have been vetoed by the Dutch government. Instead they probably lobbied FOR it.

ElectronicsQuestions 1y ago

If by "they" you mean the government, they don't need to. They'll just tell the companies that it's up to them to do it, and if they don't, they'll get a fine of a percentage of their yearly turnover. That's what the EU does.

ThyLobster 1y ago

In which case, should you mix your coins now I may presume you incurred in terrorism, trafficking, money-laundering at any point in the future.

I mean, the solution can't be "don't mix your coins", but it also can't be "be as noisy about it as possible".

The trick is to resist the injustice, while finding ways to stay alive.