Monero is a niche use case crypto token. That description can apply to every other shitcoin
Bitcoin is an easily auditable, fixed supply monetary system that is grounded in physical reality and gives anyone in the world the ability to save and truly own their wealth outside of their local fiat currencies
But sure, i’m just a retard spouting taglines. Fuck off, monero trolls 🖕
I have no problem muting every single one of you so please share this with your fellow monero trolls and come at me
Monero is PoW, fairly issued decentralized money with strong privacy guarantees and fixed issuance.
Confused why any real bitcoiner would have a problem with that.
because after invented/discovery absolute digital scarcity, if you just replicate it, you have digital uncapped aboundance that cant sustain economic value. Also the tradeoffs are bad, but the no-go start when we recognize its a shitcoin.
Yes 🤙
So why doesn't the price of #silver affect the price of #gold in that way?
That’s just entirely different. Neither has a fixed nor auditable supply, both materials are needed for non-monetary purposes, they aren’t inherently digital and are very rarely held by the “owner” themselves. There is not much of a comparison that can be made between gold/solver and bitcoin/monero
But a comparison can be made between BTC and Monero, even though they're very different? Also, i don't understand why the price of #BTC is so important to some people. Of course it needs to be a decent level, but beyond that, why does it matter. It can still be a working currency even i it's worth £1000 or less, can't it?
I'm coming in fairly new and looking at these digital currencies and these are my thoughts.
#BTC is too expensive at the moment. I know I'll be able to buy it at around £20 again at some point and I'm patient.
#ETH is impossible to actually use, because of the #GAS fees, but i can wait till they come down. I'm patient.
#Monero is a really good way of actually paying for things, because it's cheap to send. Okay it takes a while to arrive, but I'm patient.
#Lighting is actually #bitcoin's killer feature, because it makes it usable.
Hi Stonie, you tried to help me out on nostrchat, I can help you out a bit with your take on Bitcoin price.
Everybody buys bitcoin at all time highs, it a rite of passage.
There is s saying which is so true, you get bitcoin at the price you deserve. If you wait, you will be lucky to get in at a cheeky price. There are only a few days of the year that the market acts up or down in a mind blowing way, and it usually happens when we sleep. So best to just start with a few bucks worth and let it flood over you.
I presume the 20 buck reference is a joke, because there are so many diehard holders who will never sell, and therefore they bitcoin dropping to stupid lows.
At the end of the day, nobody fully understands bitcoin, and Bitcoin doesn't care what I say. But history says it's trend is one way only. Cheers
Oh I remember you. Glad you got your nick sorted. I already bought some BTC last year when it was around £22K. I'm an odd sort, so the current price is putting me off. I checked and noticed i missed the £13K bottom, but that makes me think it will drop to at least £25K if it follows this trend.
Tradeoffs are only bad in the context of a goal
Want permissionless private transactions, good UX, all without paying an arm and leg? Bitcoin tradeoffs are bad
Moneros tradeoffs make it a better p2p digital cash
if the only thing that have sense to keep is bitcoin because of his monetary property, then the spending path could be:
bitcoin ---> atomico swap ----> txs -----> atomic swap ----> bitcoin
or, better
bitcoin ----> channel opening ----> lightning ----> txs -----> atomic swap in you want new utxos decorrelated -----> bitcoin
lightning is more efficient (1 atomic swap instead of 2). Lightning is the bitcoin tradeoff for spending, and dont add the risk of have a newly printed utility token with any economic sense.
You're doing unnecessary additional swaps.
You're assuming that you would necessarily go back to Bitcoin after swapping to Monero.
Why would you swap back when you can just have a small stash of Monero you keep for spending directly in the short-medium term?
Or if you're receiving Monero as payments, it is just one swap away from hodling as Bitcoin. No need for lightning privacy gymnastics or trusting custodians.
I dont trust custodians with lightning, it works well without custodians. Also its just better then monero (instant finality of payments, possibility to have complex structure for invoice that can be "locked" for some time, like the one used in robosats for trading without escrows, simply dont need to attend 20 minutes to trade the utxo like on monero, security about being able to obtain bitcoin onchain much higher) and it will become better. Its a payement layer that can scale its features and possibility in a very fast and smart way, without caring of "the blockchain".
Its also really able to scale, with new nodes and liquidity that comes are net-positive and add benefits for all. On the blockchain every new person that arrive to transact is a scalability problem, and monero is even worse than bitcoin because dont disincentivize txs raising the fees, but let people spam the utxo set until monero become unrunnable and txs impossible to validate.
and the fact that people use it custodially is not an argumentation, even bitcoin onchain is probably mostly used custodially. I use lightning non-custodial and the experience I have is very good.
Why is that not an argument? The reason lightning is disproportionately used with custodians (~80-90% custodial users) is because of its shitty UX.
The better the UX is for self-custody and permissionless txs, the more users will use it that way.
I use it non-custodial mostly, everyone is responsible of their stack and do wath they want. Lightning enable a lot of txs sub 100 sats, like zaps, that have much sense to do custodially because who cares of so little stack. Also with ecash we now have private way to do totally private custodial txs with 1 sat fees, perfect for this use case.
For higher stacks I assure you that non-custodial ux is fine, maybe need a lot of improvenent, but I use it and theres no particular skill you need to have to start with something like phoenix.
or zeus if you want private payments also.
Zeus is cool. Probably the best lightning wallet atm. I just think self-custodial LN in general has a lot of pain points especially new users. To even begin using it the user has to commit to 100,000+ sats first. And because of the painful UX of LN, most will use Zeus LSP which gives privacy to the receivers from the general public but not the LSP.
Maybe that is good enough for a lot of users, but that is the same privacy modern banks already offer.
Monero offers privacy from ALL third parties and doesn't require putting down money to get started in the first place
I'm just saying doing all of these things in the first place is already a big jump for most.
The more difficult you make it...the less users will have the the will or capability to use it sovereignly.
P2P digital cash just has to work with as little friction as possible.
Phoenix is not private, not censorship resistant, and requires what amounts to a "minimum fee" to even start. Monero is private, censorship resistant, and can start without first needing to pay to open a channel.
with ecash you have the "how to start", you can have your first private money (with a bit of counterparty risk associated) and then when you have your 50 bucks you can use a non-custodial lightning wallet like zeus. There is a lot to do to make the ux better, I agree on this. But I also think that even today lightning makes monero obsolete.
And in the future we will see a lot greater gap from the two solutions, cause lightning can scale better with new solution as a layer (see splicing channels or bolt12 for example) while monero is a dead end, it cant scale without making impossible for most to verify txs.
Ok, but ecash is custodial...you're just making my point for me about having to choose between either good UX, or sovereign LN, but not both. Moving that $50 to Zeus is less private than ecash though lol.
Yep I've been keeping my eye on bolt12. Definitely a big privacy improvement for LN. There was too much mania over lightning in the early days that fell short of the hype, so i'll reserve my judgement until bolt12 is more widely used and I can play around with it and see it work in the wild.
We'll see
Its a spectrum, even when electrum created the concept of what we call today a "light wallet" there was problem regarding not validating yourself the transactions and delegate to a third party. But light wallet are an immense scalability solution and a tradeoff that can be useful in most cases. Nothing is really black and white, and I think that good hybrid solution are what we realistically need to scale. Ecash for little payments I think is really a cool tradeoff, I dont care to have a 100% security to not loose 50 bucks and delegate custodial. Privacy is more important for this kind of use, and with cashu you have it.
Is like entering the cinema and pay the ticket 1 hour prior. Nothing assure you to not being rugged, you have an abstract custodial asset redeemable at cinema entrance. I dont see no problem with having a custodial cinema ticket if I decided I'll want to see a film today.
You say "nothing is really black and white", "tradeoffs", and "spectrums"
So if you're honest why can't you see that using Monero is just another tradeoff? It has it's own advantages/disadvantages over Ecash, Lightning, and on-chain Bitcoin too.
it is, I used it some years ago as "hot potato money" to transact with lower fees and clean my utxos. Today, as I see developments on layer 2, I think monero is an obsolete tradeoff that is not useful anymore. In general layer 2s on bitcoin are here and mostly works, and no more shitcoins are need to scale, have privacy, have more programmable money, even nfts...
I don't agree. And neither do markets where privacy is critical, but that's okay. Appreciate the chat.
I really struggle to understand this idea it's a zero sum game. #Monero's success doesn't take anything from #bitcoin so I'm slightly confused by the apparent conflict.
Did you know?
Anything that isn't bitcoin is garbage.
Because reasons.
(#1 reason being bitcoin maxis are super intelligent and understand money better than anyone. Just ask them)
I think my real offset position is in being more interested in the technology than the money. That seems like a reasonable position to me, but it seems to clash with some.
or just do your bet, everyone will behappy with their own resources in future. Just dont scam noobs, or at least, its important that the also hear the truth from maxis
#Monero and other shitcoins are basically closed ecosystems. Much like a #blockbuster membership card, doomed for the same fate.
#Bitcoin is the network, the protocol, the fabric of the next money.
Get on or GTFO of the way.
Toot toot!
It's FOSS and permissionless just like Bitcoin
tf are you talking about
So is dogecoin, you shill that too?
I'm pointing out "other shitcoins are basically closed ecosystems" is factually wrong - shitcoin or not. You seem to agree with me based on that red herring of a question.
To be quite honest i didn’t even see what he said at the time because i have the word monero muted lol. But yeah i do agree with you that it was not factually correct statement. I hereby apologize for replying with haste and sass while being also retarded.
However, still - i’m here for a singular global monetary standard, not a muLtiCoiN wOrLd as udi types would say, or even digital bimetallism 😅
I believe the invention of Bitcoin marked the discovery of digital scarcity and the first (and only) truly sound money known to man, and since it didn’t fail outright when it was small enough to, and can’t be shut down, the cumulative value all other “cryptocurrencies” and fiat currencies and even the monetary premiums on pretty much everything else will slowly be subsumed by it one way or another
If you find the niche use case of a privacy token significantly beneficial to your life right now, that’s wonderful. I would never try to argue that your experience is in somehow false or invalid
However. I am personally just not gonna use monero or any other shitcoin, ever. Don’t know what else to say really 🤷♂️ 
Appreciate the honesty and your full thoughts.
If that's what you believe will happen, fair enough
I don't know the future. Either Monero is still around as a useful tool because Bitcoin still hasn't quite nailed it's privacy options...
...OR Bitcoiners finally shut us Monero reply guys up by making it obsolete with some layer that does the same thing (or better)
It's a win/win for me
I honestly forgot what this was about. I don't care about monero. Good luck.
it's all just electronic money and foreign exchange between them
And i have no interest being a forex trader
i heard of super-atomic swaps .. where you sell btc for monero. buy back BtC with monero. (in odd lots).
helps smash chainalysis.
"Monero is a niche use case crypto token..."
All of crypto is niche tbh including Bitcoin. If this is a popularity contest then use fiat.
"Bitcoin is an easily auditable, fixed supply monetary system that is grounded in physical reality and gives anyone in the world the ability to save and truly own their wealth outside of their local fiat currencies"
Not unique to Bitcoin. Can say all this for just about any popular PoW chain 🤦♂️
"Bitcoin is an easily auditable..."
The same reason why its sucks for privacy
The more arguments I read against monero, the less convinced I am that it's a shitcoin.
