i like to question my own beliefs. is someone out there that disagrees with one of the following statements and wants to discuss it?
1. bitcoin is the best money
2. veganism causes the least harm
3. the belief in authority is a superstition
#asknostr #bitcoin #veganism #anarchy
Least harm for who? Human health clearly suffers. None of the domestic animals can survive wild so they'd all die miserably.
least harm for all
1. did your health suffer from eating vegan? or why do you think so?
2. why would you want to put the domestic animals into the wild?
Every vegan I know has had health issues that would be easily solved by adding meat to their diet, B Vitamin and Iron deficiency are super common.
What are you going to do with the animals if no one is eating them?
1. deficiencies exist in vegans and non-vegans. you can solve it by supplements or killing an animal. one creates more suffering imo
2. they would die at some point like you and me. they exist in the first place cause people eat meat. we could also kill them, eat the meat and don't breed new animals afterwards if you like that scenario better
Sure, in people eating the SAD. But that isn't a fair comparison. We are talking about healthy human diet, you can't strawman with the worst possible non vegan diet.
Where are your supplements coming from? And your drugs like insulin? Mountains of human suffering if you take away insulin, especially since you also make keto nearly impossible.
Also, I'm not advocating for the worst industrial farming here. I buy fractional cows from a local farmer. They live in a field, life of leisure protected from predators, any risk of running out of food, and most diseases. Then one day before old age suffering sets in, instant lights out. Never more than an hour away from my home in the entire process.
That's my position. Optimal minimal suffering comes from improved farming practices not veganism. I kill one animal for months of food, you ignore all the mice and other small animals killed by industrial plant farming, far more animals killed your way.
most plants we produce today are food for the animals we eat
i just stated that deficiencies can be solved by taking supplements, not by killing animals. deficiencies can happen no matter your diet
insulin is produced from bacteria or yeast
veganism is not about not killing animals, it is about reducing the harm
But my cows were in a field eating grass, not feed. So I already answered this one.
Veganism is vague, with different strictnesses. Insulin uses animal products as input. You are changing the definition of vegan to allow some animal inputs but not others.
You also insist on a broad "harm" which you haven't defined. It somehow excludes the complete extinction of at least 2 species.
I'm not chasing eternally moving goalposts. You've asked if your fort is sturdy then bragged that I didn't catch you when you ran away. Your fort got wrecked mate.
no, insulin does not use animal products as input. even if it did, i never said anything about taking away insulin. that is a straw man
if everyone lived like you, we couldn't feed the meat people consume today. so how you live isn't relevant to the point I made
my statement "veganism causes the least harm" didn't change. i didn't move any goalposts. if you don't know what veganism or harm means, either ask for clarification or don't engage in the discussion
Human insulin genes are injected into those bacteria. They don't just make insulin for fun.
We can't produce enough for everyone to live like you either. Inefficient production choices are the cause of shortages, not the type of food. Almonds? Cashews? Fruit? Even current production levels require industrial bee farming.
I used OED, if you want to use your own definitions you need to share them up front not assume I live in your head. If veganism allows animal inputs and a peaceful protected life is harm but extinction isn't you aren't working from any dictionary I've ever read.
how is injecting human insulin genes into bacteria not vegan?
you're saying that humanity can't live vegan?
what extinction are you talking about?
Avoiding animal derived products, straight from vegan society.
I'm saying that the health outcomes of humans are worse if we do. That counts as harm in my book.
The extinction of the animals that have been domesticated beyond hope of living wild. Dogs, cows, and chickens for example.
you consider bacteria animals?
do you believe people in general can't live healthy eating plant based?
who is harmed when dogs, cows and chickens don't exist anymore?
No, but the humans the human genes are sourced from are animals.
I think that it says a lot that you concede there is a fair amount of supplementation and hoops to jump through to make it work vs just eat a steak.
The dogs, cows, and chickens that went extinct.
You still never addressed mice caught in threshers. I haven't even brought up the issues caused if we lose the population control from hunting.
Veganism sounds great first order thinking but it lives in denial of a fair list of unintended consequences. Lots of consequences to meat eating too, but the difference is I've stared the consequences of my decisions in the eye including 2nd and 3rd order and I stand by my decisions.
Give the animals the best life you can while alive then kill them as quickly and painlessly as you can. Try to limit waste. I'm not taking the position of the status quo at all.
the human genes are sourced from animals and not humans?
you're misrepresenting what i said about supplementation. all humans can have deficiencies and can supplement if needed. i personally only take b12 and taking that compared to killing an animal is worth it imo
i don't understand what you mean with the dogs, cows and chickens that went extinct. the existing ones would die naturally like you and me. where is the harm? i can't see it...
veganism would reduce the death of mice caught in threshers, because most of the food produced today is used by livestock. vegans know that there will always be harm, but the goal is to reduce it
because you mention waste: wouldn't you agree that eating vegan reduces waste more than eating meat? if you answer again with how you personally do it, then again, that is not doable for all of humanity
(sorry that i missed the point about mice caught in threshers and thank you for reminding me, i did not ignore it on purpose)
Humans are animals.
Acceptable and optimal are not the same. Acceptable health with supplements, sure but there is a large gap of human harm between acceptable and optimal. You can choose that for yourself but not for others. B12 is narrow compared to the broad spectrum nutrients in food. You don't know if or what health risks you take on by being so far from the diet you evolved for and the things you are missing.
I don't actually. Preserving meat seems much more manageable to me. Vegetables and fruit are a constant pain with things like looking good on the outside then turning out to be rotten inside. Meat is just a matter of tracking the clock and freezing. That isn't a personal thing, the hassle of telling what is ripe and rotten is universal.
I'm opposed to mass feed growing to feed animals. Cows eat grass, chickens eat grubs and other bugs, pigs are amazing for turning human plant food scraps into meat. Feed is a last resort to get through winter if you are treating your animals decently.
thank you for the discussion
1) Bitcoin is one of the best moneys
3) Belief in authority is religion not all religions are superstition.
2) other dude already explained why you're wrong. I raise my own beef, lamb, chicken and pork. If you learn to raise your own food and at sustainable levels you will find out meat the most efficient and is the least harmful. Death is natural and my animals only have one bad day in their life. The vegan diet is only viable with tons of petroleum product inputs and habitat destroying mass farming and tons of processing to even make the food digestible. Hunter gathering might be the least harmful but not feasible for every population. Check out joel salatin's talks at polyface farms.
1. what is the other best money?
2. that means you agree?
3a. like the other dude you're living in your own bubble. what joel salatin does is not possible to feed all humans on earth with meat
3b. how is processing food harmful?
3c. would humanity choose to eat vegan there would be less habitat destroying mass farming
3d. how is taking an innocent life less harmful than not taking it?
