**Reading Genesis with my 12 year old**
- kid: “But they didn’t die when they ate”
Even kids get it.
Note: I didn’t say anything before, we just read the text. They saw it straight away.
Discussion
King Solomon told Shimei (who had cursed his father): "On the day you do leave and cross the Kidron Valley, know for sure that you will certainly die. Your blood will be on your own head.” (1 Kings 2:37)
Did Shimei die that day?
Did you read the whole story?
Later it says…
// the king sent and summoned Shimei and said to him, “Did I not make you swear by the Lord [YHWH] and solemnly warn you, saying, ‘Know for certain that on the day you go out and go to any place whatever, you shall die’? And you said to me, ‘What you say is good; I will obey.’ Why then have you not kept your oath to the Lord [YHWH] and the commandment with which I commanded you?”//
This further only proves my point.
It was meant to be “on the day”.
Hence the rebuke later on.
It is not likely that Shimei died on the same day he left and crossed the Kidron Valley. The text states that he went to Gath to retrieve his runaway slaves and returned to Jerusalem. A quick Google search indicates that was a 12-hour journey one way on foot, thus 24 hours total if he just went straight there and back. Even doing that, which is unlikely, would have had him returning to Jerusalem on the next day. And then there has to be some time for Solomon to find out about it and order his execution.
My point is this was a judicial decree from a king saying that when you violate my order you will surely die. You are as good as dead from that point on. And it is the same kind of language and construction used in Genesis 2:17 when God tells Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The point was not you will literally die on the same day you transgress the command, but rather when you do that you are as good as dead from that point on.
Re-read the Genesis text.
1. YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) threaten them they would day on the day they ate it, they did not
2. Adam lived for over 900 years
3. YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) admitted that Adam would continue to live forever if they had access to the tree of life, and removed access to said tree
4. That action was what led them to die, not eating the fruit
You're trying to view the actions of YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) in Eden through the lens of a completely out of context story, to which I might add, does not even relate in any way.
I understand the need to continue to justify the narrative that you've been told, that YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) did not lie - but that simply is not the case, as per the text - which it clearly states.
I can only say that I would encourage you to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to remove any veil from your eyes and read the text without any dogma, bias and with an open mind - reading it for what it is, and not reading it and then applying a narrative layer over the top to 'explain away' the obvious.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
The text doesn't say YHWH lied; the serpent implied that.
According to Scripture, YHWH cannot lie. Do you deny that? You probably do because you appear to make a distinction between God/Elohim and YHWH which I don't believe is backed up by the Scriptures.
Sigh. Let the text say what it says.
Do not add commentary.
Let's read it together;
YHWH commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for IN THE DAY that you eat of it you shall surely DIE.”
- Ge 2:16–17
But the nachash said to the woman, “YOU WILL NOT surely DIE. For elohim knows that WHEN YOU EAT of it your eyes will be opened, and YOU WILL BE LIKE elohim, knowing good and evil.”
- Ge 3:4–5
YHWH said, “Behold, the man HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US in knowing good and evil. Now, LEST HE REACH OUT his hand and take also of the TREE OF LIFE and EAT, and live FOREVER—” therefore YHWH SENT HIM OUT from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. YHWH drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to GUARD THE WAY to the tree of LIFE.
- Ge 3:22–24
Who lied?
YHWH/YHVH or Nachash? ;
What did YHWH say would happen, and when?
What did the nachash say would happen?
What did YHWH say DID happen afterwards?
Did YHWH say how they'd STILL be able to live forever?
What did YHWH do to prevent from them living forever?
Please break down your view, FROM THE TEXT.
Who lied, how and when - and who did not lie, how and when.
If you look carefully at the command God gave in Genesis 2:17 and what unfolded in Genesis 3 you'll see some differences. Genesis 3:2-4:
“The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” “No! You will certainly not die,” the serpent said to the woman.”
Missing from this exchange is the part about “in the day.” The woman tells the serpent God said if we touch or eat the fruit we die. The serpent says “No, you will not certainly die.” Did they die? Yes, they are no longer with us. Adam died after 930, the text states. So who lied? Apparently the serpent.
It seems you want to make God the liar by emphasizing that they did not die that same day. Again, I believe God was telling them that if they ate the fruit, they would then be as good as dead. They would surely die. It's pretty clear God did not mean they would die that VERY day because when He sentenced Adam and Eve, He tells Eve she would have pain in childbearing, which means she was going to live a while longer and have children. And He tells Adam “The ground is cursed because of you. You will eat from it by means of painful labor all the days of your life” (Gen. 3:17). That means there would be more days to Adam's life. So God/YHWH did not lie, the serpent did.
The apostle Paul affirms that it was the serpent who lied in 2 Corinthians 11:3: “But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.”
And Revelation 12:9 confirms that the serpent was the deceiver: “So the great dragon was thrown out—the ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole world. He was thrown to earth, and his angels with him.”
I believe, therefore, you have misinterpreted the Scriptures.
1. You're quoting Paul, let me show you (and I now feel like I've come full circle with you) Jesus (Yeshua) giving you a description of the devil, the lying murderer from the beginning (and I already broke that down - which led to this discussion around Eden, that there is only one who fits that description - the nachash didn't lie, and he didn't kill/murder anyone - but YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) did/has)
2. Serpentine imagine doesn't = the devil, e.g. Leviathan the twisting serpent (Is 27:1)
3. The irony that you said "It seems you want to make God the liar by emphasizing that they did not die that same day" - when that is exactly what YHWH/YHVH (Yahweh/Yehovah) said, and you add that I "have misinterpreted the Scriptures" when I'm simply reading it for what it says, when in fact you are the one that is not taking it at face value, adding commentary to it and says I'm the one interpreting wrong. 🤦🏻♂️
From "The Hebrew Bible: A Translation with Commentary" by Hebrew Bible scholar Robert Alter:
His translation of Genesis 2:17:
"But from the tree of knowledge, good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you are doomed to die.”
His commentary on it:
"The form of the Hebrew in both instances is what grammarians call the infinitive absolute: the infinitive immediately followed by a conjugated form of the same verb. The general effect of this repetition is to add emphasis to the verb, but because in the case of the verb “to die” it is the pattern regularly used in the Bible for the issuing of death sentences, “doomed to die” is an appropriate equivalent."
Sure, this is an appeal to authority, but this Hebrew Bible scholar probably understands Hebrew better than both of us.
God did not lie and mean that Adam and Eve would die THAT VERY DAY, He meant they were now doomed to die. The Hebrew is mot tamut, "dying, you shall die". And they did indeed begin to die from that point; they aged, and we are all likewise dying every day, meaning death is our destiny.
I could probably find other Bible scholars and commentators to corroborate this, but I'll leave it at this. I don't often challenge people's interpretations of Scripture too vigorously unless I believe it is a serious issue, and to believe as you do about YHWH and to call Him a liar is pretty serious, in my opinion. "God forbid! yea, let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).
God bless you, bro. I hope we both come to a proper knowledge of God and His Word and that He clears away any misunderstandings that we may have.