Genuine question:
Why worry about spam on Bitcoin when natural incentives will eliminate it eventually?
Discussion
Until that time, there could be a big build of bad stuff that will be permanent. Then, all nodes will be storing that forever.
Seems like that's unstoppable, yeah?
Might well be a matter of Newton's third law.
Though, entropy being unavoidable doesn't mean accelerationism is defensible.
Right now it is diffuclt and expensive to get spam on the timechain. With op_return being more open it gives the bad people another easier way to continue with their behavior.
Who says who's bad?
I would say anyone who puts CSAM on the chain, as that is not Moral.
Sure but that's just one example of something that can get put on chain.
Also, genuine question, does lowering the op return limit difinitively make it impossible to put something like that on chain?
Think of it this way, right now there is one main way to put bad stuff on the chain. We will call it route A (the hack from segwit) it is cumbersome, expensive, takes a high amount of skill. The op_return limit raise is adding a brand new route for bad stuff, we call it route B. So now there are two routes for bad stuff and route B is wayyy easier to get bad stuff on the chain.
Have you watched/read anything by nostr:nprofile1qy8hwumn8ghj7mn2w4khqtndv5hszythwden5te0dehhxarj9ekxzmny9uqzpprrqa5g5z0vzy5k06c9gnnc485gcj84qufv88k5j8ljkmaqrxhgkgzyc0 nostr:nprofile1qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3uamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3dwp6kytnhv4kxcmmjv3jhytnwv46z7qpqwnlu28xrq9gv77dkevck6ws4euej4v568rlvn66gf2c428tdrptqcjfkft and, as of today, the latest by nostr:nprofile1qyw8wumn8ghj7mn0wd68yttjv4kxz7fwwak8vuewwdcxzcm9qythwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnxd46zuamf0ghxy6t6qqsqyredyxhqn0e4ln0mvh0v79rchpr0taeg4vcvt64te4kssx5pc0sk99k65 ?
Also, great takes from nostr:nprofile1qyfhwumn8ghj7ctvvahjuat50phjummwv5q32amnwvaz7tm9v3jkutnwdaehgu3wd3skueqqyzu7we2xhgry2mknq8v7227yn7jguu9xhu3g90n6rtnjj3mpyq3ackdvvhl
If "natural incentives" eliminated all that is unwanted on their own, poverty, war, genocide, exploitation, violence, thievary, perverts... you name it... wouldn't exist.
Filters give the power to The People. The elimination of them takes it away; & our beloved #BTC turns into #BSV.
I don't follow that logic
It leaves this question unanswered↓
"Have you watched/read anything by @Matthew Kratter @Bitcoin Mechanic and, as of today, the latest by @Adam Back ?
Also, great takes from @Guy Swann "
You don't have to believe whether you follow that logic or not to use it, since that is the logic employed in "...when natural incentives will eliminate it eventually?"
Genuine answer. Not being argumentative.
I don't understand the comparison between Bitcoin transactions and genocide
The comparison between unwanted dangerous spam and anything unwanted... Such as what I listed.
We're programmed to believe in the natural incentives of some people's concepts of free markets, even when we know that their version of a free market is the one they've created, not necessarily the one defined by the true meaning of economy.
In their free market, their natural incentives reward everything the fiat system currently is rewarding, ie poverty, war, genocide, exploitation, violence, thievary, perversions, etc...
Natural Incentives don't eliminate everything unwanted eventually for everything.
In some instances, they even reward a lot of evil.
I'm not saying in every case, but knowing this, and knowing that everything can be corrupted & co-opted reminds us we can't just rest on our laurels. Vigilance is needed in the big and in the small.
As above so below.
Have you had a chance to watch/read anything by @Matthew Kratter @Bitcoin Mechanic and, as of today, the latest by @Adam Back ?
Also, any of the great takes by @Guy Swann?
Is not Bitcoin Transactions what's being dealt with, it's what's being bundled in such transactions... kinda like those Big Beautiful Bills the government shoves down our throats.
I don't want the only one true hard money ever created to be turned into Craig Wright's wet dream come true.
Bitcoin IS neutral, this means that any good and any bad actor CAN employ it. It is part of the plebs' job to safeguard the one instrument/weapon which could disincentivize genocide from turning it into the useless BSV, or worse... a data storage repository...
for NFT of suppositories ...
If we’re lucky..
Please let don't stop them from arguing about the 2% they don't agree with
Natural incentives may eliminate the addition of new layers of it in time.
They will never remove the scar tissue that has already accumulated.
The chain will grow in time, but then, so does hard drive space and processing power. Spam pulls that growth forward, putting node ownership less in reach today.
Besides, we know we can't stop the spam. Just like nobody can stop the email spam. But that doesn't mean we need to assist in delivering it.
And of course, there's the bigger matter: the Core team is releasing a version of Bitcoin that involves less choice for the person running the node. Knots allows users to relay, or not relay, what they choose, with greater granularity. It's the same a the choice between decent operating systems and Apple operating systems.
Pleb here here who barely understands quite what a node does - but I do understand that governments will do anything possible to retain power and that it's shockingly easy to turn the population against any subset of folks who are thriving.
Which makes the possibility of child porn passing through nodes the perfect excuse for some kind of nasty witch hunt, even if eventually the spam would be squeezed out by fees.
But those are just my 2am panic thoughts 😬 and I'm hoping that I'm totally wrong on how that might work. (Anyone reading this, feel free to set me straight...)
I agree, but that's just one example of something they could do and it seems ridiculous to go around putting out every possible avenue they could attack us on
Cultural deterioration may leads to failure of the project. Ultimately bitcoin rely on good human actions.
I thought the whole point was that Bitcoin solved the Byzantine generals problem and relies on everyone acting in their own best interest
It solved by the premise that malicious nodes can’t realistically out compute majority of honest hash power .
That assumes majority of hash power are good actors.
Can't assume that
That’s how Bitcoin works bro
Isn't the Byzantine generals problem about assuming the opposite?
Spam is any information in the chain that isn’t monetary. Since bitcoin dematerialises money to information, there is no way to stop arbitrary information on chain.
Relying on “good” behaviour isn’t what bitcoin is about, it’s about relying on “self-interested” behaviour. If illegal information on chain could stop bitcoin, it never could work anyway.
I’m glad that this is the biggest thing we’re quibbling about. I’m also glad that Knots is gaining so much traction, it shows us that Core doesn’t have any power. Bullish.
My two sats: if bitcoin was more peer to peer than HODL, then spam would have been eliminated already.
Empty blocks are like bored kids. They're going to figure out something to do with it, and probably not going to be good.
Bro.. THEY callin’ us #SPAM.