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I'm struggling with the fact that you don't see the parallel here... if you _happen to_ live by the State's rules, you also are "essentially submitting".

the mechanics are the same - there is a system set up where the rules are set by a ruler, whether it's a State or a god, and if you happen to go along with the ruler's rules, you'll be okay (whether or not you are consciously submitting). its literally the same parameters with different window dressings.

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

try not paying taxes and see the reaction. When has God done anything of the sort of not donating to a church or some shit? One demands obedience, the other is voluntary. And again, its just about being a good person. Living a moral life. Take God and Jesus out of it and substitute natural law. Same exact thing. God's Laws and Natural Law are interchangeable terms, depending on use case and ones beliefs.

The

Basic

Instructions

Before

Leaving

Earth,

particularly the the Gospels, are nothing but a spiritual Natural Law seminar.

A good example of all of this is the Amish / Mennonites. They live in the world, but are not of the world. They have no use for the state, and only submit to what will keep them out of prison (taxes). One thing you may be missing is that anarchism does not automatically preclude any type of hierarchical structure, and in the case of the Amish, they most certainly do have one. But its not ruling over the community but more advisory and just keeping long held traditions in place like say tribal elders, referred to by some as the 'Natural Elite' (de facto leaders but have little to no actual authority). And anyone is free to leave at anytime they choose. Which again is the key difference. Can one opt-out or not.

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Discussion

vinney...axkl 8mo ago

I have no problem with voluntary heirarchies. they're rather important.

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

Well look at Christian Anarchism in that manner. Same idea but with God. Basically the polar opposite of mainstream Christianity, which may be another part of the contradiction you are/were seeing. Those mofos are a horrible and mostly Biblically illiterate.

vinney...axkl 8mo ago

I see what you're getting at, but you seem to be avoiding this point: are there any "rules from god" that an unbeliever can break and cause god to reach over into their world of unbelief and give them pain for? a very simple question.

or does your conception of god actually fully commit to leaving "unsubscribed" souls alone, even if they do stuff he finds atrocious, off in their own world?

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

First part, see my reply about karma. As for the second, we are all ruled by the laws of the universe. My calling the source of all this God isnt about a dude in the clouds. Whatever God / Creator / Source may be, I doubt its human comprehensible. But whatever it is, we all are governed by the same laws. One need not understand or even believe in physics, but it affects us all the same. Same goes for other universal / metaphysical systems of governance. Another thing to keep in mind is what may seem like punishment is often God (or whatever) is putting you in a place to grow or stagnate. Punishment being stagnation, reward being overcoming an obstacle and the personal growth that comes with it.

vinney...axkl 8mo ago

so would you agree that the "laws of the universe" are not voluntary nor opt-in? everyone is subject to them whether they want to be or not?

also: were those laws created and set in place by god?

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

Yes and set in place by whatever it is that caused existence. There is nothing random about our existence whatever caused it imho if that's what you might be getting at. Too much complexity in all of life for it to be a result of billions of years of randomness. Too many biological sytems that are required to work in tandem in living things for a series of random mutaltions to generate them simultaneously (irreducible complexity). The Bible isnt the be all, end all of the history of humanity and existence. Just documentation of a segment of history as pertains to a man who, whether real or imagined, man or god incarnate, changed the world forever. But there is much more and I can see nothing but a something doing this with intent as the source of it all.

vinney...axkl 8mo ago

so this ruling system - archy - applies to everything and everyone everywhere, and there is no opt out.

in this view, the concept of anarchy is everywhere impossible. you've described the perfect system of control at the physical and metaphysical level across all time and space.

luckily for me, this is a fiction and not an accurate description of reality. It sounds truly awful. at least human rulers can be overcome or avoided.

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

so you are not governed by the laws of physics, which is a making of the creative source? Anarchy of any flavor, is about earthly rulers, nothing more. Because some believe in God and use the Bible as their guide does not change anything. And you don't have to believe in cosmic justice or karma or any other term for it, it effects you whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not. Like gravity, it cares not one bit about a person's opinion of it

Joel Walbert 8mo ago

another thing I just thought of that I feel I need to clarify. Submission and obedience do not mean the same thing as pertains to the state. There are many law I do not obey as they are unjust laws and if I wanna smoke pot I'll smoke pot. But the times I was arrested for it, I submitted to the arrest cuz the other option is death. And as for the Biblical relevance, Jesus broke all sorts of laws (mostly those of The Pharisees, but they held much political influence locally), but submitted to 'authorities' when they came for him. Although in his case, it was in part because he knew he had to die, but the differentiation of terms remains

Rand 8mo ago

"those mofos are a horrible and mostly illiterate" i statements friend*/*ya

Rand 8mo ago