Nostr Web Client

I can read language or numbers on a page, I can’t decode jpegs in on chain data.

You could be relaying small op returns currently that contain pieces of cp. As you stated it’s free so does it really matter how many transactions one has to make or monitor? You could have been relaying cp everyday since genesis. There is no practical difference between a process that takes 100 instances in the meme pool pieced together or just 1.

The only person religiously looking at op_returns is Luke jr trying to

Get his rocks off. No one else examines this data while node running.

The best cp distribution would be a high bandwidth encrypted connection. Bitcoin is a very shitty file transport protocol regardless of what the op return size is…you have to see that. You think people want 100kb images when they can just get material in ultra high def through an unlimited pipe? I realize pedos are sick fucks but they aren’t retarded.

Your arguments are similar to the money laundering crime line of reasoning. Sure people can use bitcoin for crime but the reality is the is dollar is the preferred vehicle for criminals.

TheKayman 2mo ago 💬 1

The page is the blockchain, the letters are the data, your brain is the decoder. The paper doesn’t allow for the decoding of that data, you need an external decoder. That’s why I cant get the meaning when it’s Chinese characters written on the paper without the use of an external decoder (translator). I guess your point is because there is no file viewer included in a blockchain explorer, until that data is decoded in an external decoder, that data is just 1s and 0s. In reality that data IS its correct interpretation, whether it needs a standard decoder for that data format or not. If I have some illicit message written in Chinese on a piece of paper which I technically can’t decode myself doesn’t mean it’s just random characters.

Maybe I have been relaying 80byte cp op_return data forever, but that was clearly not the intended use case. The intended use case was obviously 80 bytes of arbitrary data. If someone wants to exploit that by splitting up cp into tiny chunks across many transitions, fine, yes it’s pretty hard to stop that, but it is clearly not a supported and/or facilitated use case of the protocol. And then if that data ever gets into chain, the correct way (supported by btc network) to decode that data is individually decoding them as if they were each whole chunks. So yes, from a technical standpoint 1 vs 100 split up op_return transactions are very similar. The difference is that one is the correct way to store and send arbitrary data, whereas the other is using an exploit. There are huge social, moral and legal differences between people relaying around cp split up into chunks because it has to use an exploit that’s certainly not supported by the network, vs people relaying around whole data in a field of a transaction specifically designed for arbitrary data which is clearly the intended use case.

Technically everything you’re saying is correct, but the important distinction for this whole debate is what the bitcoin network supports. Because of the removal of op_return bitcoin now supports large 100kb files, simple as that, but that opens a can of worms and is why there is push back.

Whether you think the p2p network is good for relaying cp or not doesn’t really matter. The point is this change has widened the avenue for these sorts of activities and actually now facilitates them.

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Discussion

ihsotas 2mo ago 💬 1

A new break through in video compression allows an hour of ultra high def video to be encoded into 20 bytes. Now you are relaying full movies of cp hidden in fake pubkeys meaning you can’t even run a pruned node.

Do you abandon bitcoin because criminals are using it? Or do you recognize that freedom is messy and that intentions matter and you donate some bitcoin to the vigilante squad who hunt down human traffickers and call it enough?

TheKayman 2mo ago 💬 1

Tbh I don’t really have problem with criminals using bitcoin as money. Money should be neutral and if that means criminals will use it for monetary purposes, so be it.

I think it will always be possible for people to store and relay arbitrary data using the bitcoin network through exploits or unintended use cases but as long as bitcoin’s only intended function remains as neutral money then I think a lot of the social, moral, legal potential issues to do with arbitrary data will subside. In the case of the expansion of op_return, it is expanding bitcoins use case from just neutral money to also arbitrary data relay and storage.

Touching on the case where basically any data can be compressed into 20 bytes, this sort of tech would affect not just bitcoin but basically everything else, and so cp could be encoded in basically any transfer of data.

ihsotas 2mo ago 💬 1

I agree in general. Bitcoin is a neutral network and is not responsible for criminals using it as money.

My broader point though is that bitcoin even with a larger op_return is not a realistic way to transmit images and is certainly one of the worst ways to do so. With throughput maxing out at 4mb per block and between $6000 and $10000 per block. That’s an absurd system for file sharing. The changes with core 30 are not signally anything regarding non monetary uses of the chain they are only signally that there is a garbage can to put stuff to keep the utxo set as clean as possible.

My opinion is if you don’t like the idea that your node might be hosting undesirable content you should run a pruned node. For 99% of people this is completely fine. 20gb runs a pruned node, as long as the utxos aren’t raped that number won’t change too much.

TheKayman 2mo ago 💬 1

I don’t think we are going to agree on your first point so let’s agree to disagree.

The issue with the garbage can analogy is that the garbage can is 4x more expensive. There is no economic incentive for spammers to use op_return. However, it still allows bad actors to relay illicit data through an officially supported method. Even if everyone still uses inscriptions, this change still widens the attack surface.

The issue with pruned nodes is that if I ran a pruned node I can’t run a transaction indexer such as an electrum indexer which is important for running an electrum server. Without this it makes it very hard to connect my sparrow wallet to my node. If 99% of people run pruned nodes then anyone doing an IBD would have to get the blockchain data from the 1%.

ihsotas 2mo ago

I agree that the cost of the garbage can is an issue. But I can’t imagine the outrage there would be if people suggested changes to make op return cheaper. However it is not an attack vector. Illegal data in the block chain isn’t an attack because running a node does not make you responsible for the encoded data in your node. Living in Any jurisdiction that says otherwise and you probably have bigger issues than the size of op_return and you should probably spend your time gathering guns and explosives and do some house cleaning. The tree of liberty isn’t going to water itself.

I would say if you care about self custody you run a full node. If you feel like this is a moral bridge too far I’d suggest you grow up. There is a lot of disagreeable shit in this world and a few low res images you have to go out of your way to see in a world drowning in HD smut is a pretty lame hill to die on.