I doubt most of the people getting excited about this even bothered to read how it works. It's a software quality nightmare, in my opinion, as it adds asynchronous transactions, architectural and code complexity, an entire network of servers with redundant (but potentially inconsistent) data, etc.

Relays on top of mints on top of lightning nodes on top of Bitcoin nodes, and always tied to your npub. (Theoretically, you could tie it to a different npub, but that would be completely retarded, as the whole idea is that people are zapping your npub. And forget trying to use the same zap wallet with multiple different npubs.)

Even worse than e-cash wallets on top of mints on top of lightning nodes on top of Bitcoin nodes, which is already a transaction maze that takes occasional money-loss for granted.

1. Relays can't even get follow-lists right, as they are only eventually consistent.

2. Mints can just walk off with the money. They are wildcat banks that can disappear from one moment to the next.

3. Your financial information gets passed around to wallets from developers you might not trust to deliver the quality required for banking services. As far as I can tell, you get auto-logged into their wallet, as soon as you make the mistake of trying out their app.

Every time people around here try to obfuscate novel architecture too hard, rather than putting the effort into making the connections smoother and explaining/guiding better with something like a wizard, it ends up looking like something that's a preface to the next edition of "Software Disasters".

Hard pass.

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Discussion

What’s the solution?

Define the problem, first.

I thought you just did. You weren’t trying to describe the problem?

No, I was pointing out that there are downsides to the solution (nutzaps). I am waiting for someone to describe the problem that this nutzaps solution was meant to solve. So that we can determine if there might be additional possible solutions, and then determine if nutzaps is the best solution for that problem.

I didn’t realize we were playing jeopardy.

LOL, you don't know what the problem was, either.

I think the problem its trying to solve is sending/receiving zaps by default as a new npub. Integrating ln⚡️ with no user set up.

t Y*

One use-case I'm particularly thinking about is using cashu tokens as electronic vouchers, ie relays on top of mints, on top of physical goods or services, and with nut-12 (offline verification), mints could even become obsolete...

Using it as a voucher system, rather than as a monetary transfer, has the benefit of it no longer being a financial transaction and falling out of the direct domain of banking and moving more into coupons.

they are coupons anyway, just like federal reserve notes

Yeah, but they're Bitcoin coupons, not movie-theater coupons or ice cream cone coupons.

YES!

so, i sell bitcoins, i sell vouchers to redeem bitcoins, i sell ice cream cones, i sell ice cream cone vouchers

even if labor cost was in there it's just a commodity

look at the price of eggs right now... i could sell vouchers for eggs, but if i redeem them for more than the promised cost basis of the voucher i'd lose money, so it's the same thing

with these stupid nuts things we have the problem of redemption recourse, they don't even bother to say "will repay nominal dollar cost basis if can't redeem

lol, i laugh in the general direction of people who don't know why a token is less than a unit of a commodity