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The ultimate Christian hope is not utopian earth through progressive improvements, but rather the finished work of Christ, brought to fullness in eternity. Our hope is not in princes, presidents or political processes, it's in heaven where Christ is king now and forever.

Auxmos 2y ago

I’ve heard that and believed that all my life up until recently.

The dissonance for me lately has been the idea that we’re exhorted to pray that His kingdom come on earth 🌎 as it is in heaven, but in our eschatology we fundamentally discount the significance of the world 🌎 because it will be dispensed with and heaven should be the real aim.

It just feels like we’re talking with both sides of our mouth.

I’m not a Utopianist.

I’m just suggesting that we may not be conceptualizing our relationship with the (physical) world appropriately.

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Discussion

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

The Natural Law gives what we need there, IMO.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

When I pray "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," I mean a few things. It means: may the kingdom of God, which is in our hearts, spread (through evangelism, discipleship, church growth). It is an ethical thing. I also mean "hasten the 2nd Advent," and that's a geopolitical thing.

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 2y ago

My favorite illustration of this is Rahab praying this same thing in Jericho. She wanted Joshua to hurry up. He was coming, even at the gate.

The church is Rahab in a cosmic Jericho.

Auxmos 1y ago

Your post today reminded me of this conversation we started a few months ago. I’ve got some ideas I’d like to run by you.

Jonathan Pageau recently offered a symbolic interpretation of the story of Rahab in an attempt to explain the story of the shrewd manager.

I bring it up here because I think his interpretation of the symbolism in the story of Rahab has some implications on the way we should be thinking about the world 🌍 as it pertains to our eschatology.

If I can bother you for 15min of your time, I’m sure this is a take you aren’t familiar with:

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6p9OTngJDpoyZRB3NRNyBR?si=TJl8i0xYR5SzLX_NV9aW6Q&t=727

freeborn | ἐλεύθερος | 8r0gwg 1y ago

Not a bother at all - I enjoyed that. I think he's spot-on, and I've even taught the same interpretation before. Jesus isn't exactly commending the possible theft there, but the wisdom of planning for the next phase of life, of doing costly things - even risky things, dangerous things - now that will benefit you later. (Contrary to Osteen: "Your Best Life THEN!") It reminds me somewhat of the forward-looking (or perhaps ultimate-looking) perspective in Paul's "bodily exercise is indeed profitable in this age, but godliness is profitable for both this age and the age to come." And, of course, Colossians 3 springs immediately to mind as well. 🤝

I have to say though, that I'm a little annoyed. I already don't have enough time for my current podcast list...now you've tempted me to add ANOTHER one?? Come on, bro 😅 -- jesting aside, I've caught clips of Pageau here and there for years, and have always found his 'takes' thought-provoking at the very least. I appreciated this very much!

Auxmos 1y ago

😂 Sorry about that!

His podcast is one I’m referencing often these days!

If you missed the Exodus seminar he was a part of last year you’re missing out big time.

It was incredible 🤯

Adam Snyder 2y ago

I don't think they are exclusive. We are living in Christ's kingdom now. We are ambassadors for it in the world (but not of it). Our victory isn't in earthly governments or Christian politicians, it is in working for the kingdom in a way that can only ultimately come to fullness after the final judgement when heaven and earth are made new. Focusing on here and now (culture wars, zionism or nah, theological disputes, personality cults, etc.) to the exclusion of eternity is as useless as looking so much to eternity that we neglect the work that needs done here and now.