You just don't want to debate truth
Discussion
No it’s just easier to type a response to one or two points then respond to a plethora of things with my two thumbs on my phone.
If you want to debat type a response in your own fucking words and I will respond I’m not going copy paste into an LLM to respond to you.
It's a well formed response to a bullshit assertion, i'm sorry if the full explanation is hard for you to dispute and/or trivialize
Give me a well informed response then in your own words.
The RingCT proof is clever, but it forces trust in way more complex crypto (with a bigger attack surface and past bugs) just to hide everything.
Trust emerges from transparency full stop. Bitcoin’s transparency lets anyone verify no inflation or fraud, trust-minimized, battle-tested, and enables real emergent security.
On decentralization: there were dozens of delistings/removals across various exchanges and jurisdictions in 2024–2025 (Kraken in multiple regions, Binance zones, OKX, etc.), ~1/3 the nodes Bitcoin has, far fewer publicly reachable nodes and constant regulatory targeting. That’s not more decentralized, that’s fragile in practice.
Privacy on L2 (Lightning ecash, Ark) gives the benefits without mandatory opacity’s downsides.
Bitcoiners aren’t “nocoiners”. We trust the minimal primitives that have secured trillions flawlessly. Monero trusts newer, heavier ones that invite bans and limit scalability. People can trust Bitcoin’s model for a reason. They can provably trust bitcoin from inside and outside 24/7/365.
Privacy on L2 (Lightning ecash, Ark) gives the benefits without mandatory opacity’s downsides.
Bitcoin had 2 inflation bugs, not Monero.
Monero did have one. but it was provably non exploited and patched.
there are certainly benefits to l2's. but none of them are devoid of downsides. you're just conveniently ignoring them.
monero's additional complexity is certainly a trade-off.
but institutional adoption is also a trade-off.
Monero is at ATH in price, hash power and number of operating nodes. that isn't fragility.
I said that bitcoiners are like no coiners because they autistically insist that only the primitives that they understand are worthy of trust.
The number of people who trust *different and more complex* cryptographic primitives will only increase as time goes on.
Yes because Monero is private by default it does require more complex ways to verify supply but it can be done by verifying block subsidy and emission schedule. Not sure how this creates a bigger attack surface?
Bitcoins transparency also creates risks— financial surveillance not possible in tradfi, wrench attacks, black listed addresses, etc. This is where Monero shines and why I stated they make a good pair. Yes you can get some good privacy on layer 2s but none match Monero and it has been battled tested on DNM to a much greater level than any layer 2.
Not sure how exchange delisting affects decentralization of nodes and miners? Interesting how Monero has shown strength since all the delistings by almost any metric?
Overall I use and like Lightning but it does not match Monero for privacy. And you can easily screw yourselves on Lightning privacy if you don’t know what you’re doing.
If you can get over all the confirmation bias caused by believing “everything that isn’t bitcoin is a shitcoin” you might start to see the benefit of Monero.
Your shit isn’t even coherent you posted “if you want to trust a layer 2”
“Monero isn’t a layer 2”
In the same thread
Yes, exactly, and you claimed with bitcoin, as i explained it's completely separate from bitcoin
Where in the fuck did I claim Monero is a layer 2?
I said that because it's not a layer two, and you said "with bitcoin". Here was my response right after that:
Bitcoin’s layered approach delivers robust, optional privacy without the trade-offs of mandatory base-layer opacity.
Monero isn’t a Layer 2 (it’s a completely separate Layer 1 chain), so “pairing” it with Bitcoin just means holding two assets with no seamless integration, extra complexity and monero offers risk in no transparency in exchange for privacy that bitcoin incentives and is always building to improve.
I get it—some folks discover privacy risks with transparent transactions and jump to Monero.
But studying deeper shows Bitcoin’s ecosystem is evolving exactly the right way: rock-solid transparent base layer for settlement, auditability, and anti-fragility, with ever-improving optional privacy on higher layers.
Bitcoin’s advancing secondary layers address privacy effectively—while preserving the transparency that enables broad verification, emergent defenses, and real-world resilience.
• Lightning Network: As you said, open a channel and get private, instant transactions off-chain (onion routing hides details from intermediate nodes). Channels can stay open indefinitely, with watchtowers and justice transactions enforcing honesty. Big players (exchanges, payment processors) have strong incentives to play fair to protect reputation and liquidity. No need for a separate chain.
• CoinJoin (via Wasabi, Samourai/JoinMarket): Mix your UTXOs with others on-chain for excellent privacy without leaving Bitcoin. It’s non-custodial and improving constantly.
• Chaumian eCash (Cashu, Fedimint): This is the killer—blind-signature ecash tokens that are truly private and cash-like. Mint operators (communities, trusted groups, or even solo) issue untraceable tokens backed 1:1 by Bitcoin. Redeem anytime, no history attached. Fedimint adds community custody for scale and resilience—perfect for high-privacy use cases without Monero’s downsides.
• Ark Protocol (gaining traction in 2025-2026): A newer L2 that lets thousands of users share off-chain liquidity pools with non-interactive payments. Faster onboarding than Lightning, cheaper on-chain footprints, and built-in privacy options—all settling to Bitcoin’s secure base.
These aren’t theoretical—they’re live, improving, and built on Bitcoin’s proven foundation.
Transparency at L1 means anyone can audit supply, detect attacks, and rally defenses (as Szabo’s social scalability argues). Institutions, ETFs, and nations adopt Bitcoin partly because of that auditability—not despite it.
Monero’s mandatory privacy sounds ideal until you hit reality: 73 exchange delistings in 2025 alone (Kraken, Binance regions, many others due to regs), shrinking liquidity, and constant regulatory targeting.
It’s niche (~$8-9B market cap vs Bitcoin’s trillions), with far fewer nodes (~8-10k public vs Bitcoin’s 24,000+ reachable). That hurts accessibility and decentralization in practice.
Pairing them? You’re just exposed to two separate networks’ risks—Monero’s complex crypto (bigger bug surface), potential de-anonymization research, and ban vulnerability—without the seamless benefits of true L2s.
Atomic swaps exist but are clunky and low-volume. Bitcoin gives the best of both worlds: optional, upgradable privacy on layers that leverage the hardest, most decentralized money ever. No biases needed—the design wins long-term.