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This sounds a lot like the communist "labor value theory". (labour = energy)

What am I missing/misinterpreting?

Nothing, except Bitcoin isn’t communist—it’s simply rooted in reality pricing everything in joules.

The difference lies in what anchors value. The labor theory of value is flawed because it’s subjective and ignores natural limits. Bitcoin, however, prices value in energy. This isn’t fiat economics or ideological theory; it’s a framework economists have struggled to solve for decades but couldn’t because fiat distorts everything. Bitcoin aligns value with immutable physical laws, not human interpretations. That’s the key distinction.

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Discussion

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

The labour theory of value suggests, that something has value corresponding to the amount of energy (work) used to produce it.

Of course thats complete bullshit, only fans is the quickest example to debunk that crappy theory.

NOTHING becomes more or less valuable just by using more or less work (energy).

You don't even know how blocks are mined - was it done on a Pentium5 or a C64 or an Asic?

The energy for BTC is SOLELY there to PROTECT it.

It's the amount of PROTECTION.

Everybody decides for himself, how much value that protection and scsrcity has.

A person with no water in the desert will value any drop of water higher than any amount of BTC.

There is no "intrinsic" value, every value is personel.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Imagine you use outdated hardware that uses more energy than recent asics.

Would the higher amount of energy used to mine make bitcoin any more valuable?

Clearl not.

Jack K 1y ago

No, using outdated hardware that consumes more energy than modern ASICs would not make Bitcoin any more valuable. The value of Bitcoin is not tied to the inefficiency of individual miners but to the total energy expended across the network. This energy is quantified through entropy: the entropy created, defined by the cryptographic search space and difficulty, and the entropy resolved, defined by the number of possible states a block can take.

The difficulty adjustment abstracts all hardware variations into a universal measure of energy expenditure. Regardless of whether mining is done on a Pentium5, C64, or ASIC, the total energy spent is encoded in the difficulty and the resulting blockchain structure. Each block reflects the work needed to resolve entropy, creating an immutable ledger where energy is crystallized into data. This immutability guarantees Bitcoin’s security and scarcity, regardless of the hardware used.

Bitcoin’s energy framework operates at the network level, not the individual miner level. The energy spent doesn’t make Bitcoin “intrinsically valuable,” but it defines the security, scarcity, and permanence of the system. By resolving entropy and anchoring the blockchain in thermodynamic principles, Bitcoin ensures that its data integrity is universally enforceable.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Thats what I said - the energy is the security and scarcity.

How much VALUE some attributes to that is NOT MEASURABLE.

Jack K 1y ago

The energy expended in Bitcoin mining directly defines its security and scarcity, which are intrinsically valuable to the system itself. Security ensures the blockchain’s immutability, making it tamper-proof and resistant to manipulation, while scarcity enforces the finite supply of 21 million BTC. These attributes are foundational to Bitcoin’s design, forming the basis of its trustless, decentralized monetary system. Without these intrinsic qualities, Bitcoin could not function as a reliable store of value or medium of exchange.

As humans, we apply subjective value on top of Bitcoin’s intrinsic structure based on how much we individually or collectively value its security, scarcity, and functionality. This is why Bitcoin’s price fluctuates—it reflects the market’s collective perception of these attributes at any given moment. However, these subjective valuations do not diminish the universal and constant value embedded within Bitcoin’s structure.

The analogy of Bitcoin in a desert versus water misunderstands this distinction. Water’s value is tied to immediate survival needs, which are highly contextual and personal. Bitcoin’s value, by contrast, arises from its universal attributes—security and scarcity—that remain constant regardless of individual circumstances. These intrinsic qualities ensure trustless operation and integrity across the system, providing the foundation for its subjective valuation by humans. Bitcoin’s true strength lies in the interplay between its intrinsic, structural value and the subjective value applied by its users.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Ok, i get the problem.

You believe in "intrinsic value", I don't believe in "intrinsic value".

Jack K 1y ago

No, I don’t believe in intrinsic value in the abstract sense—I believe in physics, where energy is the foundational constant that defines the value of everything. Bitcoin’s value isn’t intrinsic because we assign it meaning; it’s intrinsic because its structure is rooted in the thermodynamic reality of energy expenditure. The security, scarcity, and immutability of Bitcoin are direct outcomes of this energy—measurable, universal, and undeniable.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

It's just the other way around - the more value people give to bitcoin, the more energy they will be willing to investvin it.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Yes and...

You may not assign it a "meaning", you asdign it a "value".

That's fine.

A lot of us do.

Many do NOT.

" Value" is not measurable, it's individual.

Some people value security and scarcity, others do not.

I get your take by measuring security and all in joules - but if anybody "values" security or not is alwayas an INDIVIDUAL CHOICE.

A lot of people value security more than freedom for example.

I just want you to rethink your wording - what is value to you may not be valuable at all for others.

"Intrinsic freedom", " inzrinsic security", "intrinsic censorship-resistance" -- that all is true for BTC.

Its value, however, is always an individual choice and NOT intrinsic.

Jack K 1y ago

Value (energy) is intrinsic in everything. Even our ideas live solely due to the energy committed by an individual to pass knowledge through time.

Even that water you speak of in the desert. Without energy to bond the hydrogen to the oxygen, you have nothing.

Your subjective value is what you place on top of anything real.

If you to live in a mindset of nothing is valuable, go for it; it’s not rooted in reality. Intrinsic value is the energy required for existence. Subjective value is whatever an individual places above. Either way, both are quantifiable via energy with bitcoin.

Jack K 1y ago

Intrinsic value is an undeniable reality rooted in the laws of physics and thermodynamics. At its core, intrinsic value is the energy required for existence—the measurable effort needed to create, sustain, or maintain something in the physical world. Without energy, there is no structure, no function, and ultimately, no existence.

Fiat systems perpetuate the illusion that nothing has intrinsic value. By detaching money from any energy or physical anchor, fiat promotes a mindset where value is arbitrary and purely subjective. This illusion allows infinite creation of currency without corresponding work or energy expenditure, undermining the very concept of value and encouraging systems built on manipulation and illusion. Fiat teaches people to ignore the reality of intrinsic value because it benefits from detachment from physical constraints.

Subjective value, on the other hand, is what individuals or societies place on top of intrinsic value based on context, needs, or preferences. For example, Bitcoin’s intrinsic value lies in the energy required to mine, secure, and maintain its network. Subjectively, people assign value to Bitcoin based on how much they appreciate its security, scarcity, and utility. While subjective value is personal and variable, it cannot exist without an underlying framework of intrinsic value.

Bitcoin bridges this gap. By tying subjective valuations to an immutable, energy-backed system, it reconnects humanity with the reality of intrinsic value. It forces us to reckon with the energy that underpins existence, ensuring that subjective valuations are grounded in something real. Without this alignment, value remains as arbitrary as fiat—detached from reality and unsustainable in the long run. Bitcoin reminds us that both intrinsic and subjective value are quantifiable, but only when rooted in energy and the laws of physics.

Fiat has rotted your mind brother. Satan would want you to believe nothing is real and everything is subjective because it detaches you from truth, order, and accountability. It creates chaos, allowing manipulation and control to thrive. Fiat systems love to deny intrinsic value and promote illusions.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

I get the point, but thats not value, thats work/energy.

1 joule is just 1 joule on paper and in maths.

A joule has ZERO value.

"Oh a stone dropped from some height, that equals the value of x joule". Yes, on paper.

The tower of babel required some joules to build. Was that really a "value"?

Jack K 1y ago

Consciousness, thus the ability to value anything, is fundamentally tied to energy. Every thought, perception, and decision made by a conscious being requires energy to power the neural processes in the brain. Without energy, there is no biological or informational substrate to support the existence of consciousness.

Intrinsic value, rooted in energy, provides the foundation for consciousness to even recognize and assess the world. If there were no intrinsic value—no energy required for existence—there would be nothing to perceive, interact with, or evaluate. The act of valuing something requires a baseline reality, one grounded in the energy and effort needed to create and sustain it. Consciousness cannot assign subjective value to something unless there is first a universal, energy-based framework that makes existence possible. Without intrinsic value, subjective valuation would have no anchor and no meaning.

Jack K 1y ago

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Yea and thats bullshit.

A satoshi is not more or less valuable depending on the Terrahash/Watt used to secure it

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Or like:

Someone carves a little figure out of wood and he needs a ton of workhours and energy.

Now someone skilled does the same figure in a fraktion of time.

According to you, the first figurine should be more valuable because the (identic) second one took way less energy and time.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

In that mindset, skill is punished, because the work of the skilled is less valuable.

THAT is satanic.

Monkey Pox Denier 1y ago

Thank you for the polite discussion, agree to disagree.

NOSTR is really different, it's more like old school forums, where everybody showed some respect.