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no, and i agree with her that you focused on the religion part and ignored the philosophical basis of her point about psychic profit because she isn't as schooled in economic theory and relies on things she does know that are the religious basis

it's fine if you don't want to believe in God or ultimate justice of any kind but you also can't deny that a society that organises around these principles is a better society... the whole reason why europe has come to dominate the world in the last 500 years has not just been guns, it's also because a more just system of money and contracts, which are central principles of christianity, were in effect, from the chiming of the church clock bells to the mediation of disputes performed by the priests of a parish, christianity has been critical to how the world has got a lot better in the last 500 years, and further, Satoshi even gave a nod to that by picking the same day to finally go to public with his early alpha bitcoin project, to make a clear connection to Luther and the end of the catholic monopoly on christianity, and their prohibition of distribution of the bible

vinney...axkl 1y ago

It's quite the claim that Satoshi's nod was at Christianity itself and not actually the process by which the church's ideological stranglehold was dismantled and potentially a celebration of the decline of the church... but we'll both just be guessing here so let's not.

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I focused on the religion part because I had a strong suspicion that her points about economics were backed not by economics but by religion. I feel that she mostly confirmed this, but we'll never really know since I guess I scared her off by going there.

If I'm going to get into a conversation with someone and some large portion of their opinions on all topics are undergirded by a metaphysics I don't subscribe to, I sort of want to know that early on because in my experience it's hard for religious people to set their beliefs aside and meet me on neutral grounds about the topic at hand.

Faith tends to be totalizing - and it's understandable that it is, that's kind of the point. It's not meant to be this little sliver of a thing [over here] that sometimes has an effect; it runs through a person's core.

So I prefer to find the places we're going to "agree to disagree" early and just get that out of the way and see what else (if anything) is left to discuss that isn't poisoned by either of our convictions about metaphysics (here I am including my own convictions - I totally get that religious people will think I'm quite wrong).

In this case, it seems there was "nothing left to discuss" after the religious part was out of the way - since we couldn't even get past the religious part without her blocking me.

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ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

well i'm just gonna leave it there also because i don't like the way it feels thinking of the universe as a heartless, dumb machine, because what is the value of my life in such a context? nothing, or at best, an ever shrinking miniscule triviality

i believe that there is a force in nature that accumulates coherence and order and continues an unending trajectory towards goodness and justice, terence mckenna called it a "novelty conserving engine" but i think it is no less an abstract thing that governs all around us, and that this nihilistic, mechanistic, materialist perspective only leads to decay and death

if there is no eternal axiomatic laws in our universe, then the continued existence of it is a spite in the face of your so called philosophy

and i'm just not gonna let this thing go because otherwise i might as well be dead, and there is nothing in the future but eventual heat death and dissipation

what kind of model is that? one that does not bolster your will to do the right thing, that excuses evil and criminality and violence, you just haven't thought it through

vinney...axkl 1y ago

The universe doesn't care whether or not you enjoy the feeling of how it is.

I get that that feels bad - you said it yourself. But I don't choose my beliefs by looking at a bunch of options and saying "which one will make me feel the best, regardless of its validity?"

_That_ is wild hedonism.

Sometimes you have to accept that the true nature of a situation is not as good as it could actually be or as you'd like or imagine it could be.

Bill Cypher 1y ago

This is the post of someone who only thought about atheism for 5 minutes.

Meaning is so much more meaningful in a universe where you can truly meet the most meaningful being in existence in person and know that you did with certainty. Not having your meaning doesn't mean having no meaning.

The morality of atheism is well documented, if you think we are all just monsters giving in to our every sin impulse it is because you choose to see us that way. I would point out that only one of us feels full responsibility for our wrongdoing. After all nostr:npub19ma2w9dmk3kat0nt0k5dwuqzvmg3va9ezwup0zkakhpwv0vcwvcsg8axkl and I can't say the devil made me do it or god wanted me to make that mistake to learn some lesson. We must simply face the full force of that mistake with 100% of the responsibility in our hands.

Put those together, any harm I do to another human is a direct attack on "god" defined as the most amazing and powerful being to exist and I am fully to blame for any damage done.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

i have extensive personal experience with atheists and satanists and every last one i have met has signs of mild to moderate psychosis

and the way that text is structured it smells like AI had a big part in composing it

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

and lol what the fuck, if you are an atheist, you also are inclined towards the solipsistic brain in a jar interpretation and how do you know anything happened at all? give me a break

vinney...axkl 1y ago

Lol the people who don't believe in the supernatural are the ones with the psychosis...

Look, I mean it when I say that I don't hold your religion against you. I can't fully ignore that aspect of your worldview (because it potentially implies a lot), but I'm happy to keep having discussions with you about other topics. Hopefully the feeling is mutual. We can just say "well, we're veering into metaphysics now, probably best to avoid.." and we'll hope that isn't the fate of every conversation.

Bill Cypher 1y ago

I'm willing to bet that psychosis comes from circular logic on your part or a refusal to understand that a different world view can be consistent and their actions make sense given their world view but not yours.

No AI used. Just a wordy person by nature. Too much reading old books.

Boatface 1y ago

Or a blood infection or too little sleep for too long.

it's me, real fake 1y ago

nostr:npub19ma2w9dmk3kat0nt0k5dwuqzvmg3va9ezwup0zkakhpwv0vcwvcsg8axkl nostr:npub1qyxlpj2gl6dt2nfvkl4yyrl6pr2hjkycrdh2dr5r42n7ktwn7pdqrdmu7u

thanks for this. it's fun to read.

I had trouble describing my own beliefs (raised by atheists) in ways that weren't belief based, so I cointed the term "Apathet" to describe myself for religious classification.

I don't care if there's a god. I'm a good person anyway in case there's some moment/eternity of judgement awaiting me. Let some God figure it out, and I'll continue making conscious decisions in the present moment. what a relief.

the universe is way bigger than me, but it is me.. and I it. as are you, even if you're AI. and there's something valuable in connecting with the universe how my ancestors did. through symbols.

.. and it's nicer to consider the world (my limited perception) through a slightly mystical lens.

Bill Cypher 1y ago

If I were AI my memes would be better.

vinney...axkl 1y ago

I can dig that! Thanks!

vinney...axkl 1y ago

The foregrounding of conscious experience itself - substrate independent - is 👌