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The topic of Mary, Mother of God, the Theotokos, was a hurdle for me. Protestants unknowingly setup for ourselves this strawman argument that Rome and the Eastern church worship idols, while never considering once how they justify their stance. Well, for one, they agree with protestants that God alone is worthy of and to be the only recipient of worship. Immediately, the argument doesn't meet the qualification of its presupposition.

John of Damascus, a champion against muslim influence within the church during the iconoclast revolt, once stated, "I do not worship matter. I worship the Creator of matter who became matter for my sake, who willed to take His abode in matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. Never will I cease honoring the matter which wrought my salvation! I honor it, but not as God. Because of this I salute all remaining matter with reverence, because God has filled it with his grace and power. Through it my salvation has come to me."

The term veneration is also depicted as interchangeable with worship, however, it is simply to honor those who went before us and bore the light of Christ in their lives. We know that all good things come from God, including a faith that perseveres and conquers, thus when the saints are remembered for their lives willingly given to their Beloved, it encourages us to run the race as we are in the midsts of such a great cloud of witnesses.

How much more the one who bore the very glory and image of God Himself? It's partly due to Mary's willingness to say yes that we are in God's kingdom today, and praise God alone she did!

#biblestr #jesus #christisking #christian

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Discussion

Clout Chaser 🗿 2y ago

Are you familiar with the actual Protestant arguments against it?

1: It’s ahistorical. You don’t see it references in the early fathers.

2: Any use of images is a violation of the 1st Commandment (2nd Commandment for the Reformed) and God’s judgement matters more than later traditions.

3: The distinction between latria/dulia/proskuneo (veneration and worship) isn’t demonstrable from the early Greek sources.

It’s not a strawman. We actually substantively disagree about what you’re doing, and the actual historical/linguistic evidence is on the Protestant side, which basically all scholars acknowledge.

We know Catholics don’t think they’re worshipping Mary and the Saints, but we think they are doing that by their actions.

Bass 2y ago

I am familiar with the protestant position, as I was initially programmed by a reformed seminary and to this day attend a protestant congregation.

1. Its only ahistorical if you are exceptionally selective with who you qualify as the church. For example, the church came together in the 3rd ecumenical council to discuss the pushback by some who werent comfortable calling Mary the mother of God, however, the title was accepted as such. They have reason to believe that asking Mary for intercessory prayer was common even around 250ad. I understand that Luther decided that all ecumenical councils had erred and that his subjective discernment was accepted by all branches of protestantism going forward, but even the most liberal of churches recognize the first 3 to 4 councils as having some validity.

2. If all images are a violation of the 2nd commandment, why did God command Moses to create the Arc, the vestments, etc in the likeness of created things right after being given the commandments? It seems that there is some context that is missing in the protestant interpretation.

3. Its clear from the writings of all church fathers that they ascribed worship to God alone, not creation. Their apologetics and homilies never indicated otherwise from my limited knowledge. I simply dont understand the foundation of this position, I hope im just misunderstanding.

Regardless of appearances, the point I was making is that initial presuppositions towards the 'enemies' position and worldview become in a sense a self fulfilling prophecy. If you don't try to understand the oppositions argument to the extent that you yourself can articulate it to their satisfaction, then you are but a noisy pebble in the shoe rather than the harbinger of humility and truth.

Bless you brother

Greg 2y ago

Well done!

DOW 2y ago

Let me try.

You are right that Protestants often accuse Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians of worshiping idols, but this is a misunderstanding of their beliefs. Both Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians believe that God alone is worthy of worship. They do not worship Mary or any other saint. However, they do venerate Mary and the saints, which is a way of showing honor and respect.

Veneration is different from worship. Worship is giving God the highest honor and reverence, while veneration is showing respect and honor to someone or something that is considered holy or sacred. When Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians venerate Mary, they are not worshiping her as a god. They are simply showing her honor and respect for her role in the life of Jesus Christ.

John of Damascus, who you mentioned, wrote extensively about the difference between worship and veneration. He said that we should worship God alone, but that we can also venerate the saints as a way of showing our love and gratitude for them. He also said that we should not venerate images or icons of the saints as if they were gods, but that we can use them as a way to focus our attention on the saints and to remember their good example.

The Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches have a long tradition of venerating Mary and the saints. This practice is based on their belief that the saints are in heaven with God and that they can intercede for us on our behalf. When Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians venerate Mary and the saints, they are simply asking for their prayers and help.

I hope this helps to clarify the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox understanding of veneration.

nobody 2y ago

Well written.