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“Morally repugnant” shows that you have a sense of right and wrong, you know some things are unjust. This is good. You know harming the innocent is wrong. We may disagree on what some of those things are, but you know there is a right and wrong. And frankly, the way you talk about being a good father is something I greatly respect. I try to be, as well.

The Christian response is that God defines what is good. He is that definition. Our morality is subjective, existing within the system. He is objective, existing outside the system He creates. He has power of life and death, not us. He is the offended party, not us.

No, the point of the law is not to just to highlight failure, but it is a mirror to show you what you are really like inside. We are not just broken, we’re selfish and even murderous if pushed. Regarding His children, as the story goes… in the beginning He gave us one rule, and we broke it. He gives us another chance to just live together with a few rules and we end up filling the Earth with violence (Gen 3-8). He creates human government and more rules to stem that violence (Gen 9) and we still kill each other. Maybe we just need an exact system to show us what God requires, hence the 10 Commandments and the Mosaic Law. Add in 600 laws and a detailed case law system with penalties, and still we failed. It’s not the laws, it’s not the amount of laws. Romans 7 tells us the law is good, it’s not the fault of the law. It’s us. We are the problem. Throughout the history in the OT, we get highlighted portraits of those who got that lesson. People who were changed from the inside out. Abraham is one, even with all his problems, his faith was credited to him as being righteous. The New Testament builds on that foundational truth, in Romans 3 through 5, that faith is the only way, and it is then reflected in your actions, chapters 6 through 8.

That is what the coming of Christ shows us, he could do all of that. He lives out that life in us and through us, all the credit goes to Him. He is the standard, and it really does matter what you are like internally…not just on the surface. Who you are inside comes out in your actions. That’s what He meant when He said you will know a tree by its fruits. That’s why his harshest words were for the hypocrite teaches who were like whitewashed tombs, looked good on the outside, but inside had dead men’s bones.

I hope I’ve been clear, but I’m not the standard of righteousness. I am not what God requires. I’m not even close. Christ is. And if your experience with Christians has been one of prideful hypocrisy, or the creation of endless sets of rules to change what only God can change, shame on them.

They have forgotten what they are: Rebellious enemies of God who had unfathomable mercy extended to them. They have been forgiven much, they should live with more grace towards others.

Bill Cypher 8mo ago 💬 2

Because god said so is a semantic stop sign.

The old testament is pretty gruesome to any modern sensibilities. It isn't just man, plenty of gods actions are quite violent. A higher death toll on gods hands than Satan even by a wide margin.

To continue the parenting angle since the bible uses that metaphor itself. Consider that Lot was deemed a just man after everything the angels reported from their visit. Have any daughters? Would you make that offer? It isn't even consistent with other biblical teachings.

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SuperDave 8mo ago

Semantic stop sign…it was not my intent to end constructive thought or reason. When a Christian starts with “God says”, means I am appealing to an external standard, one that exists outside the system you are measuring. That is my point of origin. In order to determine good or bad, you must have an objective standard by which you measure thought or action. You disagree with my starting point, but the argument itself is internally consistent.

I think your main goal is to identify hypocrisy. Understandable. If you can find hypocritical or inconsistent commands of God in the Bible, your point is proven. Which I think was your original point about ham on Easter. But how do you know hypocrisy is wrong? Is it really? where does that come from? The consistent answer I make is that you are made in the image of God. God does not approve of hypocrisy.

Morality being produced by democratic vote or what is pragmatic for that society has produced far more hypocrisy and evil as it changes with the those in power or with the weather. In some societies, child murder was acceptable for worship, even Israel engaged in it, but it is objectively always wrong.

On Satan….According to the Genesis account, Satan deceived the first parents, our representative head, and condemned all succeeding generations to death. Jesus calls him a murder from the beginning. So, no, Satan has far more blood…all that blood on his hands. Killing and causing suffering out of hatred for God and God’s Creation. God provides redemption in Christ. He is just and will punish evil, but provides a way back to Him which shows He is also merciful.

On Lot, Lot was righteous, but also a weak and fooling man to try to lead his family in a terrible environment. Bad call. So affected were his daughters by that city that they thought it was a good idea to get their father stone drunk and date rape him. Their actions produced some horrible enemy nations for Israel, the Moabites and Ammonites. Lot’s foolishness and his daughters’ gross perversion created generational problems. Descriptive not prescriptive. In fact, the story is a warning. Lot was a good man and tried to do good, but made some stupid choices and it really affected his family.

However, there is a note of God’s redemption even in this horrible sin, Ruth the Moabite became a wonderful example of the redemptive love of God. She was in the line of King David and even Christ Himself. God can use even gross sin for noble things.

I am sure you will reference a story I have no answer for, but that would be my failing. Not the Bible’s. I think it would be a far better use of your obviously sharp and introspectional mind to ask why you know hypocrisy is wrong or why you want to be a good father. Is it just what everybody thinks? Is it just what makes society run well?

Well, then who defines what running well looks like? It’s a never-ending subjective black hole.

Bill Cypher 8mo ago 💬 3

You've rationalized away offering your daughters to be gang raped by the villagers, all because your entire moral reasoning is backstopped by the semantic stop sign "because god"

I actually kept digging for a reason things might be good or bad.

How did you possibly come to the conclusion I am the one who has weak moral reasoning?

SuperDave 8mo ago

Gotcha, my mistake. You mentioned Lot’s daughters, I was addressing one of those horrible scenarios where you can see how the city affected their reasoning. Those two girls raping their father came later. Earlier in the story, Lot offering them to be raped was not justified at all. It was wrong and terrible, and violates God’s law regarding how to treat your family. We know that by what the rest of the Bible says. He was a good man trying to live well in a bad place, and made a gross error under stress. Absolutely wrong. But that account paints him warts and all. Not rationalizing his actions, it was stupid and foolish to live there. And To marry your daughters into that culture. Abraham offered his wife to pharaoh, that was wrong. David killed his general to sleep with his wife. Wrong. These were good men but also sinners, warped, and in need of mercy and internal change just like us. We can see their repentance and admission of wrong, but only Christ is good. The way the NT paints it, 2 Pet 2:7 Lot was righteous and distressed by their lawless deeds in Sodom, but he was also responsible for what happened to his family. He is accountable and should have left sooner.

SuperDave 8mo ago

And I think I have repeatedly identified that you have a strong moral code. You hate hypocrisy, want truth, and protect and provide for your family. All very good. But that’s just me saying it’s good or just you saying it’s good, a group of people can come along and just say it’s bad. It’s logically subjective…that’s the black hole.

Bill Cypher 8mo ago 💬 3

This is the point of my entire train of thought. You don't know where that path leads, but that doesn't mean you can assume it isn't a path or that it goes nowhere.

Here is the core of this entire trap they've set. As long as you believe that giving up your god leads straight to no reasoning basis for any moral code it is terrifying. You can't leave, what if you go become a pedophile or murderer or whatever type of "sinner" scares you most.

Really reflect and ask yourself how a Christian afraid of hell compares to an atheist who does the right thing simply because it is right with no existential threat? If you awoke tomorrow 100% convinced there was no god, other than not attending church what changes? I have raped and murdered everyone that I want to, have you?

I'm not trying to convince you there is no god. I'm just placing a path for intellectual retreat. I doubt you've ever had a safe place to consider the question without feeling fear. I have been an atheist 20 years now and I am not 20. I know all to well what traps have been set to keep you from even asking the question honestly. I remember how long and terrifying that journey out was.

SuperDave 8mo ago

I would have to say, yes, like you I have raped and murdered everyone I want to. At least today.

Although not a true text book atheist, I do think I was definitely in the camp of defining my own morality before I was confronted with something far greater. There was absolutely no basis for what I thought was right, just myself, and logically, that makes society itself untenable.

I appreciate the thought experiment, however. The motivation for doing what is right, avoiding what is wrong is important. But if I come to a different conclusion on what is right, could you tell me why your way is actually right?

SuperDave 8mo ago

Hey nostr:npub1qyxlpj2gl6dt2nfvkl4yyrl6pr2hjkycrdh2dr5r42n7ktwn7pdqrdmu7u I have appreciated your thoughts. Thanks for being a good sparring partner. I’m gonna close out this thread, but you can have the last word. Truly, thanks for exchange.

Bill Cypher 8mo ago

I'll use my final word to say you were extremely civil, patient, and kind compared to my average experience having that conversation with a religious person.