Replying to 772f9545...

I made no appeal to fiat, which is government declaring something as money. Gold is not fiat money, it is honest, real, market money.

Money has never been and should not be considered sterile. The example I used was gold, which has use besides that of a medium of exchange. See Mises' regression theorem for this. Regardless of whether we use gold, even if we were talking about fiat money, by your definition of sterility, no goods grow, reproduce, or produce anything by themselves. Whether I denominate the loan in corn, sheep, gold, or paper, it doesn't change the analysis. My example assumed no new money creation and explained where interest comes from, namely time preference, and where the seemingly new money can practically come from, namely other loan defaults and consumption of the lender.

The borrower is not compelled to borrow and the lender is not compelled to lend. There is no more theft here than in any other voluntary exchange.

Do you really think the lender is not sharing in the risk of the borrower's enterprise?

Even with collateral, the future is uncertain, and the collateral may not be worth what it was at the time of the agreement, much like there is no guarantee that the money will be worth what it was at the time of the agreement. This is true whether we assume honest or dishonest money.

Nothing in my example assumed fiat, nothing assumed fractional-reserved banking, nothing assumed dishonest money creation from nothing. I agree that all those are bad. I also think that if we used honest money and if we considered counterfeiting as anti-social activity, then there would indeed be fewer people borrowing out of desperation. The reason is related to what you mentioned: fractional-reserve banking and/or fiat destroy the purchasing power of money and therefore create a perverse incentive to borrow or invest when simple honset money saving would have sufficed.

Do you honestly use an em-dash in your everyday posts? Or am I arguing with an LLM?

I love em dashes—and I'll use them as much as I want.

You're arguing with the truth.

“The most hated sort, and with the greatest reason, is usury, which makes a gain out of money itself, and not from the natural object of it. For money was intended to be used in exchange, but not to increase at interest. And this term interest, which means the birth of money from money, is applied to the breeding of money because the offspring resembles the parent. Wherefore of all modes of getting wealth this is the most unnatural.”

— Aristotle (Politics, Book I, Chapter 10)

“To receive usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice.”

— Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica II-II, q. 78, a. 1)

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No disrespect to Aristotle or Thomas Aquinas but they are incorrect on this point. I already gave some reasons.

The money does not breed more money. The money already exists. Inequality is natural, and no inequality necessarily emerges from a loan. Todays borrower may be tomorrows lender and vice versa.

Another way to look at it is every exchange is necessarily unequal. Both parties gain else the exchange would not happen. So there is no expected "equality" in exchange.

I've read human action and it correctly describes the mechanics of exchange. But it doesn't mean that every exchange is moral.

If there is a young woman who needs bread to eat, and I say I will give her money, but only if she has sex with me. She may agree. The money was worth more than her dignity. The sex (hypothetically, I would need do this) must have been more valuable to me than my money.

So what. That doesn't make it moral. That is EXACTLY the justification behind lending at interest. "Well, you agreed to it."

*Typo, I would never do this

What Aristotle and Aquinas are saying here is that money is sterile and that lending at interest is theft. You said nobody ever thought that. That's actually what everyone always knew.

What you are doing is repeating the trite rationalizations that we grew up with in a time of perversion, under a system built in fraud and theft.

Fiat is not just evil because they can print more. It's evil because it is usury. What you are repeating is fiat's justification. The very premise. The magical belief that lending creates value, when it does not.

Christ flipped tables over it. Muslims revile it. Jews even know it is evil which is why they are forbidden from doing it to each other. (For some reason they are ok with doing to gentiles.) The Buddha denounced it. Etc. etc.

Money is an information system to coordinate work. To charge rent on money is to cheat the game and take it hostage, to trade someone else's labor for none of your own by taking advantage of their need. It is predatory and evil.

The best moral minds that the human race have ever produced all agree and have explained it at length. What you are saying is just a perverse rationalization. It's mental gymnastics that we were all indoctrinated with, but it is an evil and predatory view that justifies theft and slavery.

Bitcoin was built to destroy this evil. When money is honest, it will be obvious to everyone again.

I see where Aristotle and Thomas came in now, thank you.

I said "money has never been and should not be considere sterile" which could be interpreted as either "money has never been, and should not be considered, sterile" or "money has never been, and should not be, considered sterile." I intended the former but it was ambiguous.

Saying "money is sterile" is like trying to divide goods into "essential" and "non-essential" categories. It is futile. All valuation is entirely subjective. Yes, I am echoing Mises and Rothbard because I find their arguments reasonable.

The arguments made in favor of usury are not all fresh rationalizations. See Objections 5-7 in Thomas' discussion. The only new argument is time preference rooted necessarily in human action. It also happens to be the best argument. I would wager you're familiar with the Austrian Business Cycle Theory. Underpinning this theory is the concept that originary interest is not primarily a money matter. Time preference is found throughout the capital structure and not only in loans. Whether you want to call that thing that affects the capital structure interest or not, you have to consider that action takes place in time, that capital formation exchanges lower present consumption for greater future consumption, and that therefore you have to make odd rationalizations to say that investing in-kind for future gain or buying stock in enterprises for future gain is fundamentally different than usury.

The essence of fiat is the decree from authority. So fiat money is such when decreed to be money by some authority. If fiat money were honest money, there would be no need for the authority to decree it as money. It would already be money. It is the counterfeit, non-market nature of the money, the ability for someone to say "this is money" that is fiat. Usury is a separate matter constrained to money-lending and can apply to honest or dishonest monies alike. I can lend fiat or I can lend silver with interest or without interest. Fiat is also distinct from lending. A fiat monetary system can be foisted with lending or without lending undergirding it.

Regarding Scripture.

Moses says in Deuteronomy "You shall not lend on interest to your brother: interest of money, interest of food, interest of anything that is lent on interest. You may charge a foreigner interest; but you shall not charge your brother interest". This prohibition applied to ancient Israelites lending to ancient Israelites, and not ancient Israelites lending to ancient gentiles. So even within this prohibition, we can see that usury in itself is not evil, because of the exception. We also see it is not unique to money loans.

Jesus explained his reason for kicking traders out of the temple in the same verses that describe it.

Matthew says "Jesus entered into the temple of God and drove out all of those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers’ tables and the seats of those who sold the doves. He said to them, 'It is written, "My house shall be called a house of prayer," but you have made it a den of robbers!'"

Mark says "Jesus entered into the temple and began to throw out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and overthrew the money changers’ tables and the seats of those who sold the doves. He would not allow anyone to carry a container through the temple. He taught, saying to them, 'Isn’t it written, "My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations"? But you have made it a den of robbers!'"

Luke says "He entered into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in it, saying to them, 'It is written, "My house is a house of prayer," but you have made it a "den of robbers"!'"

John says "Jesus went up to Jerusalem. He found in the temple those who sold oxen, sheep, and doves, and the changers of money sitting. He made a whip of cords and drove all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money and overthrew their tables. To those who sold the doves, he said, 'Take these things out of here! Don't make my Father's house a marketplace!'"

None of these verses mention usury. If we extrapolate that usury is sin from these verses we would also have to extrapolate that selling and buying oxen, sheep, or doves is sin as well. The plain interpretation of the source of Jesus' anger is people were exchanging on the temple grounds which violates the purpose of the temple. It was not only the money-changers, it was sellers of goods. In short, it is more about the temple and less about exchange (or usury).

You might object that usury could apply to goods as well as money. In that case, we come back to the idea that usury is distinct from money and usury is there in all future-for-present exchanges, and is not fundamental to money, not fundamental to fiat money at all.

The only mention Jesus makes of usury is actually in a positive light in the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25, Luke 19).

The Pentateuch applies to the ancient Israelites (perhaps only even a subset of them) and not to Christians. Even supposing it all applied to all Jews and Christians alike, this instance clearly indicates that usury per se is not sinful, due to the distinction between fellow Israelite and gentile. The New Testament nowhere prohibits usury. Solomon's observation "The rich rule over the poor. The borrower is servant to the lender." is just that, and does not mention usury as the root of the slavery, rather borrowing itself.

The Old Testament, especially Proverbs, frequently chides dishonest weights, measures, and scales. Those are also known as fraud, lying, stealing, or counterfeiting.

Regarding bitcoin.

I take Satoshi at his word when he wrote "A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution." He didn't mention usury or counterfeiting here. See how many times Satoshi mentions "trusted party" or "counterparty" or "trusted third party" in the whitepaper. The whitepaper can be seen to solve the "trusted third party" problem of payments online.

If usury was evil to the ancients and best minds of history, I doubt they would think of bitcoin in a positive light. Unlike gold and even notes backed by gold, bitcoin was invented out of thin air. Unlike fiat money, however, it is private and voluntary. Its value is found on the market, not by decree. Bitcoin as money is not evil in itself for some of the same reasons that usury is not evil in itself.

Regarding voluntary sin.

I agree that from a catallactic perspective we may allow things that from a moral perspective are wrong. In other words, I agree that even if by the market rules a desparate person may sell his body for money, it is usually still a sinful act. I don't deny that some people are more and less desparate, some people are more and less powerful, and so forth. The assertions that I thought we were debating were whether usury as such is always evil, whether usury is essential to fiat, and whether bitcoin is related to usury.

Hopefully I have made some useful point in this long response that you find helpful. I am delighted by the appeals to Aristotle, Thomas, and Scripture. It is also nice to be challenged to think through reasons regardless of who introduced them to me.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I appreciate the civility and the chance to dig deeper.

The heart of the disagreement is simple: charging interest on a pure loan of money is unjust because money, as money, produces nothing. Demanding more back than was lent means getting paid for something that does not exist.

Time preference explains why people lend and borrow, but it does not create new value from sterile money. True investment (real risk-sharing, equity, partnership) can justly yield profit because something productive is at stake. A guaranteed-interest loan is different: it gives the lender a privileged claim on the borrower's future labor while shifting nearly all downside risk to the borrower.

From a purely Misesian angle, widespread interest-bearing debt also corrupts money's role as an information system. Debt obligations get rolled, packaged, and sold as if they were present goods. This floods the economy with promises that distort price signals, push interest rates artificially low, and cause capital misallocation (exactly the mechanism behind ABCT, even without a central bank). The signal gets noisy, malinvestment builds, and the productive economy ends up servicing claims that never came from real saved capital.

Bitcoin's fixed supply and lack of easy credit layering resist this distortion better than any previous money. It forces either actual transfer of present goods or genuine risk-sharing, keeping the monetary signal cleaner.

Every major tradition saw this clearly and condemned usury for the same basic reason. The modern defenses are sophisticated, but they remain the historical exception. Respectfully, the fundamental question is whether money can justly breed money. Reason and tradition both say no.

A Bitcoin economy will have no use for debt. Bitcoin is inherently equity based, pinned to time in the present (every ~10 min), grounding present action on past work only, and naturally deflationary. These are good properties that correctly model reality. We should not distort the clean signal with time traveling debt magic that attempts to conjure something from nothing and build the present on the future.

I love your first sentence there, by the way.