When people talk about the importance of centralization, I believe that most people take the existence of an open internet for granted. Especially bitcoiners. And especially the kind of bitcoiners who talk openly about welcoming the collapse of American political institutions.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider when you’re engaging of the mental gymnastics of what could happen in a counterfactual scenario where the US government were to collapse — which I see a lot of people around these parts suggest would be some kind of deliverance, and that freedom would blossom from every town, city and hamlet, and the winds of bitcoin-fueled prosperity would sweep through and bring spontaneous order to all.

There’s so many suspect assumptions in the view that the collapse of Western liberal democracy would lead to something better that it would be impossible in enumerate in a single note. But perhaps the most important one to consider is: why are you so sure a tyrannical regime wouldn’t take its place? Also, why are you so sure that you can use your internet-bound money to resist them?

As far as that second question goes, I’d suggest that such a regime seizing control of the internet in the US in a comprehensive way would not be difficult. In fact, there’s only two or three major broadband providers in the US left today. Secondly, about five companies, who run data centers and cloud services control over 80% of the daily traffic in the internet. Thirdly, the global interconnects to and from the United States which run through undersea cables could be *easily* severed if there was political will to do so.

My argument to those who are so confident we could sit back, grab popcorn, and enjoy the unwinding of Western institutions, and hand out copies of the bitcoin whitepaper and wait for emergent prosperity to kick-in, requires taking so much for granted that it makes my head spin.

I put this kind of thinking on the level of say, liberal reformers who made the terrible mistake of lining up behind the Ayatollah in the Iranian revolution as a consensus opposition leader. Or more contemporaneously, the liberal protesters in the Arab Spring who successfully brought down governments, only to find themselves on the wrong side of the power vacuum.

I mean I think it’s kind of nuts that some people think I’m a “contrarian” when I say things like this, but I’ll make the point anyways: I think bitcoin’s success is pretty tied to the continuance of liberal democratic governance for all the above reasons.

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I would not that it sometimes seems people wish for the total collapse of western liberal democracy, but really, people want western liberal democracy to reform and be liberal democracies agains. Most of us know that most regimes are much worse elsewhere currently. But it does not mean that western liberal democracies have not slowly drifted into illiberal oligarchies in some regards: media owned by billionaires mostly, free speech very much attacked, monetary policy in a corner and more and more discretionary, vaccines and mask mandates etc

Thinking it should and could operate in a better way is not the same as being a Putin or Xi apologist

I have had many bitcoiners argue with me that bitcoin is all we need to save us from such a collapse, though. Some forcefully so. Some of them have even blocked me on Twitter for dispatching with their views such as I have above.

I think one problem with bitcoin is intelligent people with a lot of mistrust were first attracted to bitcoin. Intelligent folk with trust were well rewarded with careers in the establishment and saw little need for a dis-intermediated financial system.

As a result, Austrians, libertarians, ancaps etc have dominated the social narrative and made bitcoin look like an anti state mechanism. It doesn't help that they carry a lot of hate for authority and treat bitcoin as a personal "fuck you" token

But a proper look at Bitcoin's zero entropy and the underlying math clearly shows Bitcoin is a communist ideal as well. It actually unites capitalism and communism. And that the separation of money and state brings the individual and collective into perfect harmony.

As a truth machine. Bitcoin's measured adoption gives time for other parts of society and economics to adopt honesty in their practice, because that will be the best defense against bitcoin.

Bitcoin will renew society. Not replace it

It is sometimes difficult to zoom out and realize bitcoin is just one part of a larger set of tools. This is even more prevalent in "crypto" where a blockchain is viewed as the solution for every problem.

💯 I mean, this is the different between wisdom and curiosity versus ideological zeal. Being truly honest with yourself means following your assumptions to their rational or empirical bedrock. Not just using your imagination and trying to narrative-fit the world around you into a story.

Also, why do you seem to think I’m defending the status quo? The distance between “we need serious reforms to fix structural problems in our system” and “everything is fine the way it is” extends across a vast landscape of intellectual positions.

When the government stops stealing from poor people like me that live in the hood. Then I'll probably think about what you're saying until then f*** the government. I hope they f****** break up tomorrow. F*** the government f*** the government f*** the government when you come live. Where we poor people live? Then you could say something until then f*** the government.

The government has been lying to me since I was a child. My mom and my dad signed their rights away when they sign that birth certificate to the government. F*** the government.

I wear the criticism proudly. I’m not here to LARP a revolutionary. I’m here to protect human freedom using reason and logic. Not make believe fantasies spouted by a pied piper whose imagination is only matched by the depths of their ignorance.

Last thing I'm gonna say is come live in the trenches be in the slums with us daily. And leave your stack at home don't don't have access to it leave that stack at home and come join us in the trenches then talk. All that s*** about the government.

Change is coming and I agree that a total collapse of existing governance in a matter of months or weeks would probably have disastrous consequences for all, outweighing the benefits of a Bitcoin standard but still, if the transition is smoother, over a decade or two I can see this work out just fine.

Clinging to our slave masters because they feed us only works for so long ...

Change is *always* coming. That’s kind of a moot point. I am talking about something pretty fundamental here. In particular, the maintenance of a political system that *allows* for change in the first place.

What liberal democratic governance? Are you fucking kidding. We are bitcoiners, we are not in this to become rich.

We are in this to finish the fed, and the current tyranny, and murders. And the only reason we are in this situation is because of covereds like you.

The one that allows you to say something like this, and not have police come knocking on your door.

If the founding fathers would have thought like you. The constitution, and bill of rights, would have never happened

Going to have to unpack what you mean by that, because I’m really not following you right now.

Look, with Bitcoin we have a chance to bring the financial system that feeds the war machine down, without firing a single shot. This does not bring down every institution, collaboration but just the financial system. You will not be able to vote your way out of the current situation. There is no democracy. This is our best shot at a peaceful resolution.

this is spot on. we need a mix of foxes and hedgehogs to have a functional society. bitcoin can induce rampant hedgehogism in an unproductive way. it's one slider on the panel of what makes a society functional. I read this into the humility mentioned by @odell

True. The open internet is a gift that we take for granted. It was literally a gift from a simpler more optimistic time. It’s value was far greater than its threat, so it was allowed some room to grow. It could just as easily be blocked today. For those on this thread, what’s the response then?