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And this goes again to the 'submission' and 'dominant' thing that the Red Pill crew loves. I think they see women being 'bottoms' as them being submissive during sex.

But that doesn't line up with me. And when someone tells me that I ask them "are you submitting to the masseuse when you get a massage?"

You could see that situation as the 'bottom' submitting, or you could see it as the 'top' servicing the 'bottom'.

(I prefer to imagine sex as simply play time. No need for hierarchies in the bedroom.)

rafftyl 5mo ago 💬 1

I would say that giving your body up for somebody else to manipulate (pardon the awkward expression, can't express this properly in English) is inherently submissive, or at least I strongly feel it to be so.

The problem I see is that we've (by "we" I mean both the patriarchal and feminist worldviews) started seeing all kinds of submission as something to be shunned. But not all kinds of submission are created equal. I think that it pretty obviously boils down to whether the act is voluntary. There are few experiences that can compete with willingly surrendering yourself to someone else, if you do it in love and trust, while the same (if viewed mechanistically) act is traumatizing if imposed upon us.

So, in terms of sex, I think that being a bottom in STRONGLY submissive (you're being penetrated, for God's sake), so men will tend to be more dominant in this sphere of life (also taking into account the vast discrepancy in size and strength), but:

a) it's not a bad thing,

b) it's not true 100% of the time (we can chose to be submissive and it's much more fun if we do from time to time),

c) it does not have to carry over to all the other aspects of life, as some more patriarchally-minded people would like it to.

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HannahMR 5mo ago 💬 1

are you submitting to the masseuse when you get a massage?

I can assure you that my experience of sex as a female 'bottom' is not at all one of submission. ...I often feel a bit guilty for being so lazy 😝

rafftyl 5mo ago 💬 2

> are you submitting to the masseuse when you get a massage?

Yes, in a way.

I won't be able to prove to you that my intuitions are right, but this is my perspective. And of course I'm in no position to question your own experience.

HannahMR 5mo ago 💬 1

Are you confusing submission with trust? Certainly sharing your body with someone requires a lot of trust. Pregnancy, STI's, ...just imagine a woman going down on a man... all those teeth! A lot of trust is required!

rafftyl 5mo ago 💬 2

I don't think I'm confusing those terms, but I see trust as a prerequisite to fruitful submission. I tried to define my terms in the response to your question about hierarchies. I don't know how to link notes, I hope this works.

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HannahMR 5mo ago

Submission is for your enemies. It is something you beat someone into. Trust is for your loved ones. It is something that is earned.

When you love someone you support and protect their autonomy.

rafftyl 5mo ago

I strongly disagree. For me, submission is not a pejorative and certainly not limited to adversarial dynamics. You can voluntarily submit to authority, submit your body to manipulation by someone you trust (a surgeon, for example), submit to a court judgement and so on. Violence is only one, and the least desirable, way of establishing a hierarchy. Trust is a better one.

On a religious note, alluding to a thread you started elsewhere - when mystics speak of submission to God's will, they certainly don't mean being beaten and guit-tripped into conformity (the Protestant way), but a voluntary and deep conformance to the deepest structure of reality.

HannahMR 5mo ago 💬 1

Also, to test my theory, do you support patriarchy or enjoy hierarchies?

rafftyl 5mo ago

Hierarchies - to a degree, patriarchy - not really. I think that the answer to the question of a proper human organization resembles something more like a dance than a rigid structure.

To be more specific - I understand the word "submission" as a temporary and partial ceding of control over yourself to somebody else. And the degree of proper submission to others greatly depends on the circumstances, the competence of the person I'm submitting to, the relation of trust between us, my own competence/skills and a host of other factors. Therefore, the structures of authority and submission should never be to rigid - sometimes I lead and sometimes I'm led. However, some people will be more equipped to leading than being led and vice-versa. And this is the degree to which I believe in hierarchies.

I find this dynamic to be reflected in multiple aspects of life, including sex. And like in sex, I do believe that if the dynamic is based on trust and love, it won't really matter who's submitting to whom at a given moment.