Ok. Just got back from a lovely trip but had a hectic travel day yesterday. That said, I was delighted to see your reply.

I was also delighted to read through some of your other posts and find that there are topics of general agreement and some otherwise, but all seemed both well-reasoned and communicated.

It is a singular pleasure to come across profiles like yours, and to see that some seem to be in this for the chance to connect with others who have different points of view.

I maintain my primary position that I don’t know shit about fuck, and that neither does anyone else. All we can do as humans is try to find the best path forward for ourselves without screwing over anyone else (or at least as few others as possible).

Regarding the topic at hand, I think we both agree that homeschooling seems like the better, although imperfect in its own right, option for shepherding children into adulthood. I 100% agree that the duty should fall more squarely on the shoulders of those who bore them into existence, and not those who the government must coerce to fund overpopulation and unrealistic perpetua growth strategies.

The topic of having children itself though, is a much more nuanced one as you suggest. We could go on for pages about the merits of each side of the argument, and I appreciate your point about whether a better money could lessen the impact of overpopulation, but I maintain that the planet would still have too many humans on it, even with perfect money.

The end point of the best conversations I’ve had about whether or not to have children seems to be a fundamental difference between those who think life itself has value and those who think it doesn’t.

As someone who has a spectacular life (and I mean that, I am extremely happy by both objective and subjective measurements) but also would rather have never been born, I am very clearly on the side that doesn’t see human life as anything special. Where I do place value is on human suffering, which unlike happiness or contentment, is nearly limitless. My goal then is to avoid human suffering at all costs since I see life itself as meaningless, and that starts best by not making more humans in the first place.

Anyway, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this but understand that not all can choose to think about this topic. I readily admit that it is a difficult one for parents since coming to the conclusion that having a child was a “mistake” (for lack of a better word), would produce far too much dissonance. It isn’t like you can undo having children and I get that.

So much obliged again for the reply, and and I’ll throw you a follow and a zap for sure.

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You seem to want to avoid suffering at all cost, but sometimes the greatest growth happens through suffering and difficulty. We learn more and grow more through difficult times than through easy/enjoyable times. This is true whether you are talking about an individual or a nation or mankind in general. You can see that through the massive downturn in civilization (and morals) that has occurred in the past 50 years. All of the economic and technological growth caused ease (most people didn't have to worry about where there next meal would come from anymore, but instead worried about whether their preferred entertainment would be available or if they might have to hear an opposing viewpoint). Earlier in American history, when times were truly tough, people were happier and grew in wisdom and strength.

In my personal life, I had a string of horrible circumstances happen that led to me being better off (and a greater faith in God). My hot water heat pipes burst flooding the entire downstairs of my house. We had to have giant fans running 24/7 for 6 weeks and the whole downstairs was flood cut. Insurance wanted to only pay 60% of the cost of repairs. We had to get a lawyer to get a settlement to pay 90% of the cost after 9 months of fighting and living in horrible circumstances. As soon as we got the check, we changed insurance companies. Ten days later our house burnt to the ground with not one thing surviving (Fire caused by city employees). Within one month, the new insurance company had paid for the house, the trees, the barn, and a year's rent for while we rebuilt. A month later our car engine burnt up.

A month later my husband ruptured his Achilles tendon. Our rental house had the bedroom and family room on the same level and only a few feet away. The house that burnt down had the bedroom upstairs and very steep/narrow steps and the family room downstairs. We had also had an electric recliner donated to us. Recovery was so much better in the rental house than it would have been in the house that burnt down.

With the extra money from the original settlement and the full payment from insurance, we were able to build our dream home, designed for every stage of life (and in a very fire proof manner) and wind up with a paid off house. We are all better off having been through those hard times than before. Not one member of the family, if given the opportunity to go back and avoid the fire and flood, would chose to do so. We are stronger mentally and as a family than before the hard times and we have more consideration of others going through hard times and can be an encouragement to them.

I would never give up the hard times even if given the chance.

No, the world is not overpopulated. Each person brings new ideas and some of those become innovations that improve standards of living for all.

Children are the greatest blessing. People who view life as meaningless have nothing to live for because they have no purpose. Every parent knows what their purpose is.

Let’s hope for your children’s sake that you are right! :)

You sure seem to think you are.

I personally could never be so sure of anything as to risk someone else’s life on my “faith”. What happens if having kids is just another in the myriad expressions of human vanity and narcissism? Surely adoption grants the same purpose no?

Yes, I’m thinking adoption would provide the same purpose. I hope you’ll find your purpose, whatever it may be.

I think I understand where you’re coming from, and I agree that difficulty and challenge can provide valuable perspective.

But where is the value or perspective for example in early onset malignancy that produces spinal osteosarcomas that impinge on a 6 year old’s peripheral sensory nerves leaving them crying in agony during months of agonizing “treatments” and surgeries because the parents couldn’t come to terms with the fact that their child was dying?

There are limits to perspective being a good thing. Sometimes life is just plain fucking awful and unfair.

By the way, I also like a friendly, honest debate with someone I disagree with. Sometimes I learn something new and change my mind. Sometimes I strengthen my own belief and argument because I find more facts supporting my view during the debate. I also like knowing how and why other people think the way they do. All in all, I am better off.

Unfortunately very few people are willing, or even capable, of having a logical and friendly debate. Most people think a person who disagrees is an enemy. Most of the time a person who disagrees just disagrees. There should be no animous.

100% agree :)