Do you at least grant that Jesus’ substance (underlying reality), not accidents (appearance, taste, etc.) as Aquinas would put it, can be in the bread and wine after consecration by His divine power if He chose to?

If so, then I see no reason not to take Jesus literally in scripture when he said what I quoted earlier. But I understand you don’t find those arguments compelling enough.

I look forward to checking out more from Ryle and learning more about Church history. Oddly enough the disagreements and debates within Christian denominations is what has sparked my interest in reading the bible, which has strengthened my faith as a result.

Likewise 🤝🏼

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Well, no, I would not grant that. His is a true human body and, though glorified, is not ubiquitous (as Luther, I believe, stated it). The bread and the wine take on a different meaning in their consecration, but they do not take on a different substance. Analogously, a golden ring means something different if a vendor hands it to me in the market place, than it does when my wife hands it to me, along with vows, in a marriage ceremony. The context of the ring-giving, and the words of promise accompanying the ring-giving, and the person doing the giving of it, all change the meaning and import of that ring--but it remains a ring of gold.

Yes, Jesus said "this *is* my body," but--to riposte your parry--he also said, "this *is* bread" and "this *is* wine." Here's another perspective on the question, which I appreciate -- I came across this article ~5 years ago, and don't know much about the author or the site, but the article itself is thought-provoking: https://mereorthodoxy.com/real-presence-presence-reality-fresh-look-reformed-sacramentology Ironically, it was sent to me by a dear friend (my best man, in fact) who is *solidly* RCC.

The Westminster Confession is (in very large part) *my* confession - its edges can be rather sharp here and there, but, if you're interested in the historic Presbyterian view on this question - it can be found here: [WCF XXIX - Of the Lord's Supper](https://opc.org/wcf.html#Chapter_29).

🤙

--oh, and let me hasten to add, I applaud your approach! Be like the Bereans: receive the word with openness of heart, but search the Scriptures daily to see whether these things are true. Acts 17:11.

...don't trust--verify!

I guess I don’t see why it has to follow that Jesus body has to be ubiquitous for Him to be present in the sacrament. I don’t see a logical problem with the argument that Christ’s glorified human nature, united with his divine nature, allows localized presence in the Eucharist via God’s power, not ubiquity.

I’m vaguely familiar with the Westminster confession, but I’ll look more into it of for nothing else to understand its point of view. My initial view of the five solas is not great based on debates I have watched, but there is good scholarship in the Presbyterian church.