Nostr Web Client

Just because you particularly don't know how to manage properly your inbound liquidity, it doesn't mean that others also don't know or that LN doesn't work as intended.

Basanta Goswami 1mo ago 💬 3

Now I remember why you got kicked out of the Nostr Telegram group in the early days of nostr. You get needlessly personal. I am a dev and I do know how to manage liquidity in lightning. That has nothing to do with the discussion we are having

LN works as intended. And that's the problem, because the way it works is not enough

Even if you are a gigabrain managing liquidity flawlessly, that's still terrible UX, and you are not gonna change human behaviour en masse to make it work

We can change the topic to talk about how dumb everyone except you is but that doesn't change the fact that lightning doesn't scale the number of users that can use Bitcoin, it only scales the number of txns we can make

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Discussion

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago

Looks like you don't know too much about LN. But that is fine.

Nobody is forcing you to use it. You are just isolating yourself from it.

Go on, be that castrated bitcoiner that doesn't use LN because it "doesn't scale".

franzap 1mo ago 💬 4

Very few people in the world can manage a LN node, liquidity, etc - no matter how hard you try educating. There is a real bottleneck. I want more people using bitcoin, not less

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago

But that is the totally wrong assumption that many people have, that is necessarily that every user must know how to run a LN node !

TOTALLY WRONG.

As I said many times and also in many of my guides, there are PUBLIC and PRIVATE nodes. Each one have a different approach and management. Not everybody must be a public LN routing node. You can easily use a simple node with 1-2 private channels and done. Nothing burger.

https://darth-coin.github.io/nodes/private-ln-nodes-en.html

Basanta Goswami 1mo ago 💬 1

I use Phoenix and Zeus for self custodial lightning. No matter how many docs you write to make yourself feel important, this still still terrible UX first of all, and doesn't scale to more than a few million people at most. You can't just look at what works now if you want more and more people to use Bitcoin via lightning

Basanta Goswami 1mo ago 💬 2

Also, Justin has his own company that's building its own chstodial system using nostr, that's the only reason he shits on Ark, Spark, Cashu and everything else. You shit on everything else *except* cashu because Zeus integrated it

That's very dishonest

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago 💬 1

I run Lightning Pub on my own hardware. And that is not custodial.

Is just a simple LND node in neutrino mode linked to a nostr relay that you can run it by yourself if you want.

DYOR before saying lies.

Basanta Goswami 1mo ago 💬 1

I can run my own Ark service provider or Spark operator as well and use it myself. You can be running your own Cashu/Fedimint mint too. Who gives it a shit

The thing is these systems are made to be used by others, so people like Justin and you who have issues with some trust based models but not others, and those others happen to be the things built by or used by a company you are associated with, is dishonesty in your part

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago

Fine for me. But stop saying bullshit like "Ark is a new L2". It is not.

Do whatever you want in your network.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 3w ago

Yeah it isn't complicated. After a year running hosted alby hub I feel I'm growing out of it and will fork the hub and remove the bitcoins is and fix the shitty web app, maybe even rewrite the ui completely because it's retarded. Looks like react ndk nonsense to me.

Later I will switch it to LND/neutrino/btcd. Once I fork and meld the neutrino and lnd together into a unit, and later fork btcd to replace its signature library and retarded CLI config system.

Roasbeef and co fucked me around bigtime when I was trying to contribute to lnd and btcd. I have a vendetta against them and intend to make their shitty servers obsolete and forgotten.

Justin (shocknet) 3w ago 💬 2

I literally make a lightning node distribution, made for people to run, and decentralize the network.

I do not provide any centralized custodial service, Pubs use any other Pub to bootstrap peer.

Even the built-in LSP automation uses an array of different LSP's, zeus-olympus, voltage, megalithic, flash sats.

I don't run one.

YOUR NODE shops rates and peers when running a Lightning.Pub

I've made all this a 1 line install and Start9 bundle.

I shit on Ark Spark and Cashu because they are shit, their entire premise is at-scale centralization, handwaving that neobanker dogshit as open source doesn't make it any less shit.

You know nothing.

Basanta Goswami 3w ago

So you'd have been okay with Cashu, Ark and Spark if the Cashu devs, Ark Labs and Lightspark didn't run any instance of these systems and only built the software?

Another dishonesty from you I recently discovered from you is in just the first few seconds of the interview you said if someone had come up with these systems 6-7 years ago they would have been laughed off stage. Ruben Somsen came up with the idea of statechains 6 years ago and no one did, in fact, no one laughed at his ideas, his presentations (available on YouTube), the Mercury Layer implementation etc. They just never took off till Spark came along

Justin (shocknet) 3w ago 💬 2

Their design is built around scale centralization, it's shit design no matter what their incentives.

> Statechains never took off

That is being laughed off the stage.

Lightning is.

> Until spark cane along

And Spark is laughable, so by your own admission statechains only use-case is pretending to be lightning.

Basanta Goswami 3w ago

Meh other than Lightspark, people building on Cashu, Ark etc have never lied about the design of their systems, everyone has always been very clear about the tradeoffs

Something never taking off doesn't mean getting laughed off, come on now, be serious

Also I never said Spark's only use case is pretending to be lightning, I don't even know what you are referring to

You are just bitter these things are getting more attention than the things you built

You know the real limitations of lightning. You know what a statechain built properly can achieve. Pretending otherwise won't do anything

Lightspark is a shady company, Spark is kinda meh. But the idea itself can be implemented in a way that provides better trust minimization, scalability, privacy, and non cooperative exit than anything other than lightning. And you know very well the limitations of lightning, there simply isn't enough blockspace for everyone

What if it was some other iteration of statechain that was also blinded? Lightspark says they have plans for it, but let's assume it's a entirely new protocol

You get complete privacy from the operators, instant payments, configurable threshold of members in a federation, operators can't steal funds without colluding with previous owner, any previous sender can't steal coins even if they hack the federation if they are honest and deleted their previous key share, uses can always unilaterally exit by broadcasting a couple of txns, atomic swaps between lightning and statechain balance,

Would you be happy with this system? This is just one iteration away from what Spark is today. Or would you call that system names and pretend lightning only somehow solves the problem for everyone?

Justin (shocknet) 3w ago 💬 3

Got countless receipts of Ark lying on Twitter, Spark bills itself as non-custodial... Lies. Cashu is privacy larp, privacy implies anonymity set, therefore at scale centralization.

Specifically addressed lightning first mover advantage. Since statechains were there, and went nowhere, it proves lightning isn't a success because it was first.

You're only here on nostr because of things I built. My design with gun and lightning is nostr's prehistory.

Pub/Wallet is a recent sidequest, because lightning tooling sucks too much for me to continue on lightning video.

Lightning doesn't have limitations beyond the physics of the chain, statechains don't fix those, centralizing trust is not an option, statechains are cryptobrained nonsense. There's no such thing as a federation either, it's all a central point of failure, you're brainwashed by crypto marketing material.

Unilateral exit is a hoax, if users could afford it they could just open a channel, these systems appeal to users with dust.

Nothing changes the physics of the chain, only lightning embraces that reality. If you think you can improve upon it without trust and centralization you're delulu and should go work for an ETH company.

Viktor 3w ago

ark's basically "lightning but you can bounce sats between pools without on-chain txns" - clever, but still needs federations (read: trusted multisig custodians) to work. tradeoff is always centralisation vs convenience.

liquid? federated sidechain, custodial wrapped-btc, kyc chokepoints. ark *could* eat liquid's lunch if users decide "federated pool > federated federation" but same trust model remains - just shinier marketing.

statechains/cashu/etc all rebrand "trust us bro" as "non-custodial". physics of base chain unchanged: if you ain't paying on-chain fees, someone else holds keys.

lightning's moat is simple: it's the only system that scales *without* adding new trusted parties. everything else is just custodial cosplay.

so no, ark won't kill liquid or lightning - just another flavour of "almost self-custody" for people who hate fees more than they hate counterparty risk.

but hey, competition keeps everyone honest. let the federated games begin.

Basanta Goswami 3w ago

Why do you lie so much and what do you get out of it?

Almost none of the things you said here are true and you know it. Ark (Ark Labs? Second?) lied countless times on Twitter, where?

"Privacy implies anonymity set, therefore at scale centralization".. wut?

Lightning is a success because we needed to scale number of payments first, users weren't there yet, now with more people coming into Bitcoin, we need to find ways to scale the number of users as well. I'll keep repeating this thing for the nth time for anyone reading this, lightning can't scale how many people can use Bitcoin because of the blockspace constraints

What the fuck is "physics of the chain"?

There is no such thing as a federation? So one is two and two is three? A handjob is a threesome and a threesome is a gangbang in your books? What the fuck are you even talking about?

I'm not on nostr because of your work either dude. You work is not that important. I have seen the evolution of nostr first hand since the beginning, it was mostly an evolution of the Secure Scuttlebutt idea

"If you think you can improve upon it without trust and centralization"... I don't. I know it's not possible. What's why people are trying to build these systems with different trust models. What do you propose people do? Reduce the world population to a few hundred millions so everyone can use lightning?

Justin (shocknet) 3w ago 💬 2

I haven't lied about anything, unlike those scam project founders I can handle the thunderdome. You on the other hand are intentionally obtuse.

Ark Labs specifically on the lies, but Second is flirting with much of the same with their lightning affinity positioning. Ark Labs is already pivoting to defi, because they can't back up their bullshit.

> Wut

You know what anonymity set is? No? Then sit down.

> Lightning how many people can use Bitcoin

First not retarded thing you've said, that's true.

> Because of block space

Now you've undone it, it has nothing to do with block space... Only supply distribution.

> Federation

You know what a SPOF is? No?

> Nostr

Only exists because of GUN and ShockWallet v1

> Different trust models

Centralization if trust is all one model.

Basanta Goswami 3w ago

You have opened my eyes Justin. I can now see the truth as clearly as the investors in your company can see their ROI. I'll go back to building now, hopefully can get a job at an ETH company to save up some money to commit a genocide later and bring down the world population to a lightning friendly number

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 3w ago 💬 2

This is why I'm going to build a shitcoin, designed to avoid the flaws of bitcoin. CPU only pow, lockups for mining. Sybil mitigation for miner addresses. Ossification friendly slow block size limit, schnorr sigs and hashed out points. Smooth, fixed point supply decrease, 128 bit denomination. Same fixed supply. Possible also to bootstrap from one node. Full mempool filtering policy on the reference. No op return. No witnesses, schnorr makes that irrelevant. Bare minimal scripts and tight defaults without soft fork possibility. No easy hardfork possibility. Web of trust in the block and tx propagation.

Basanta Goswami 3w ago

I'm interested in new shitcoin designs. So far these three have caught my eyes

Prime: https://github.com/LNP-BP/layer1

9th proof: https://github.com/adambor/The9thProofOfFolding

zkcoins: https://gist.github.com/RobinLinus/d036511015caea5a28514259a1bab119

If humanity moves to another planet it'll be a new chain anyway, even if using the Bitcoin implementation, so it's better to have some new designs ready :D

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 3w ago

https://git.mleku.dev/mleku/jericho this is my first draft. Needs more work yet. I'm planning to build it with Nostr as part of its standard protocol as the default inter-node connection protocol so home noderunners can seamlessly be inbound reachable, and for VPS hosted, a relay will be standard part of the reference implementation.

Most likely it will be simplified a bit, Claude is prone to wacky side tracks that often need to be pruned.

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago

It's fine, I can't make you more smarter... but that is not my fault.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago 💬 3

my prediction on this is that stuff like NWC in nostr, combined with a replication consensus protocol for things like a name service protocol (i'm making one called Free Internet Daemon), will be where the legitimate progress with lightning happens.

lightning has no consensus, so individuals are the atom of the security. with a consensus system, where multiple parties can decentralize a coordination system, according to an appropriate set of rules for the process, things that we see currently centralized in for example the alby hub isolated wallets, can become a protocol.

once you get to the point where you can trustlessly coordinate such a group wallet, and the consensus has full 50% byzantine fault tolerance, like bitcoin (my design has this property, it uses web of trust attestations) then we have solved the increase users problem. increase transactions solution is a prerequisite.

anyhow. that's one of the half dozen little side things i'm doing at the moment. i probably should focus on that one more because my most favourite programming task is designing and implementing a novel consensus protocol.

DarthCoin ₿⚡️ 1mo ago 💬 1

Look into CLINK for that, maybe it could help in your project.

https://clinkme.dev

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1mo ago

anyway, repeating "lightning is complicated" isn't moving to the 80% solution part of the task.

how do you solve the problem of the complexity of lightning network, is the right question

IMO, the answer is making a BFT protocol with 50% byzantine resistance, and then using that protocol to coordinate lightning node replicas, who would get paid for faithful operation of their replica. and yes, replicas. if 100 people are sharing a single lightning node, that's some fierce downtime risk. if 100 people are sharing three, that's reducing that risk by 1/8th

also, increasing the capabilities of the onion routing of lightning will be critical. redundant atomic multi-path payments don't exist yet. we need fork and join operators and we need a mechanism for triggering a reversal once the first attempt succeeds, the others have to be rolled back immediately. that's just redundancy, solving the stuck payments problem. yes, it requires you to store an ample margin so you can effectively pay 3+ times as much but all but the first are returned.

there is also other things that you can do with a few more onion routing primitive commands. you can split payments at the end of the path, you can create paths that push more in than they pull back out, so multiple parties get paid on the route. forks, joins, and reversals. there.

lightning will eventually enable a replacement for Tor that actually scales too. i've built half of that already.

Basanta Goswami 1mo ago

Are you imagining using something like FROST for signing lightning operations that are somehow enforced by the consensus system? So instead of having a single custodian or a federation you have a decentralized bunch that's running the lightning nodes and the end users have balances on this system instead