Nostr Web Client

Klaus Wuestefeld is most famous for Prevayler (2003), the earliest implementation of event sourcing that I came across.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKlcErWtng

His ideas around p2p sovereign computing where intellectually dishonest though. Everyone wants sovereign computing, that's a no-brainer, but scalable decentralization is a hard problem that nostr too hasn't solved yet (the scalable part).

It's like coming up with "world peace" as a great idea. No shit. We all want world peace. But it's the how that's kind of hard. I'm doer, the self-proclaimed visionaries out there can take their "great ideas" and stick them somewhere.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

it's kinda lame how these things seem to be plagued by toxic personalities

i think that getting protocols specified is the hardest part and after that meh whatever... you support the version that fits your business model and your philosophy

nostr has reached a point where certain initial ideas in its data structure are showing some real issues of usability, the kind numbers especially, because they don't directly relate to the thing they mean (IMO kinds should be 16 character max strings)

i think it's fair to say that bitcoin has mostly solved the decentralised scalability problem for one domain though, the nakamoto consensus achieves decentralisation without coercion or partiality that we see with stuff like mastodon etc

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Discussion

Vitor Pamplona 1y ago

The fact that Bitcoin needs a single chain of blocks is a centralizing factor in itself. Nostr is much more decentralized because it doesnt need a chain. We can have transactions everywhere. There is no need for consensus.

Nostr wouldnt work for a global ledger but it does work for most other applications.

frphank 1y ago

Uh oh next thing you say we don't need a global ledger either and then where is bitcoin.

Vitor Pamplona 1y ago

Have you heard about a global Cashu ledger? ;)

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

no, the whole point of bitcoin is that it's money and that means it has to be a global ledger, in order for its supply to be limited... it's the realisation of ideas from Mises and Hayek

there is no need for a global ledger for a server that one person is responsible for and providing for a limited set of users, it's a different structure, in terms of law, money cannot be a trust, but any enterprise can be a trust because a trust must have a bounded set of beneficiaries

any kind of "currency" that is still a trust is not money in the sense of gold coins are always going to be worth something because they are durable, portable, scarce and verifiable

bitcoin's got all of these properties

Vitor Pamplona 1y ago

Is bitcoin better money because of those properties? Sure.

Are those properties a requirement for money? No. History is full of moneys that didn't offer much but were still highly used.

Is a global unified ledger a requirement? No, you can have sharded ledgers everywhere. They can all be different from one another. Does it exist today? No. Could it exist? For sure. Do we know how to build it? No.

Just because things are the way they are doesn't mean that better things cannot exist. I don't know if we will see something better than Bitcoin in my lifetime, but there is no mathematical proof that a better system can't exist.

Let's give it another 100 years and check in later. My bet is that Bitcoin will last as long as other global reserve currencies have lasted. Then somebody will have a true new idea.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

you don't get bitcoin either

frphank 1y ago

Lovin' this thread.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 1y ago

vitor outed himself as a shitcoiner, so idk, that's fun i guess

doesn't understand the moneyness of a global ledger versus a corporate, limited scope ledger, which is an equity or security, not a real thing in itself

frphank 1y ago

Oh noes nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z you better hand over your bitcoin membership card now. 😂

Vitor Pamplona 1y ago

Imagine when he realizes that I created a coin called Karrot to represent vision exams in a circular vision insurance marketplace between employees, employers and vision doctors. 😅

frphank 1y ago

Those kinds of things in small closed circles have a chance of representing some sort of reality. They're more like food stamps.

With a Karrot ledger here and a Foobarbaz ledger there etc. we're approaching the sharded ledger goal.

frphank 1y ago

Of course people like nostr:npub1fjqqy4a93z5zsjwsfxqhc2764kvykfdyttvldkkkdera8dr78vhsmmleku are so desperate and depraved only wet dreams of some sort of global dominance the kind of James Bond Villains will keep them afloat. That's why anything less has to be rejected.

frphank 1y ago

"We don't know how to build it" -- if "we" is humans on planet Earth that's a large set and makes negatives hard to prove. There could be a yak herder in outer Mongolia right now sitting in a yurt with their laptop, coding the shared ledger solution, and you wouldn't know about it.

The "if/when it exists, the news will reach me" attitude requires being well plugged into the global conversation, and one that bitcoin "shutting out the blasphemy" bigots can't afford.

frphank 1y ago

Sharded ledgers FTW.

frphank 1y ago

Just googled it, a bitcoin derivative. So there is bitcoin but it's hidden a bit. An attempt to hide bitcoin's Achilles heel, the global ledger?

Banks in my town create fiat money by lending it into existence and keep a ledger who in my town has what balance. There are several banks to choose from. Decentralization in the real world.