The fact that every zap received is a kyc-free contribution to your stack is a big deal.
Discussion
But we could stand to be more vocal/educational for newcoiners about this and help them get off to the right start
Hey #[2] and #[3]
You both have mentioned being fairly new to Bitcoin if I recall correctly?
Are you familiar with kyc vs no-kyc or would you appreciate resources on it?
I was going to ask but I didn’t want to sound dumb lol
Same.
Someone please teach me 🙏
Just wrote a whole thing and it didn’t save 🤦♂️ let’s try this again.
KYC means “know your customer” and it’s a set of laws where financial services are required to collect a ton of your personal info to provide the service (the way bank or a Bitcoin exchange requires your name/address/social security number/etc.).
It’s “supposed” to help prevent money-laundering and tax evasion, but criminals know how to do their job and they can simply use cash.
Instead, it forces normal citizens to reveal a ton of private info to a centralized service, which can then be hacked or leaked. And, due to the nature of Bitcoin, once the sats are associated with your identity, your spending and saving can be tracked and it’s ultimately a massive privacy violation.
Non-KYC Bitcoin is the opposite. It’s usually acquired peer-to-peer, from another individual. Like Zaps ⚡️
There are also services that facilitate peer-to-peer buying of Bitcoin.
My opinion (and some may disagree) is that it’s perfectly fine to hold and use either/both kyc and non-kyc Bitcoin, *AS LONG AS* you always keep both stacks completely separate. Because as soon as you mix your KYC-free coins with KYC’d coins, then your identity gets linked to all of them.
So having two wallets that never send back-and-forth to one another is key here. And never sending KYC sats from a centralized service into your non-KYC wallet is also important of course.
Happy to answer questions, and I’m sure the #plebchain would be delighted to chime in with resources and newcoiner-friendly advice as well.
Happy stacking 💜
What’s the best way to initially fund a wallet from the “outside”?
One of the best peer2peer platforms is RoboSats. It uses the Lightning network (low fees) and all the traffic goes over Tor (you’ll need the Tor Browser) so it’s as private as can be.
Peach Bitcoin is supposed to be great but I think it’s only in Europe right now.
Bisq is a popular desktop application you can download and buy sats directly there.
Bitcoin meetups can also be an option! That’s in-person p2p so literally an exchange of cash for Bitcoin.
Hope this helps!
Any other good recommendations from the #plebchain ?
Sucks that localbitcoins is shutting down. Otherwise their are btc atms but they charge crazy high fees and are somewhat kyc. There’s a bisq competitor but forgetting the name right now.
Bisq is the best i find. it runs on the bitcoin network too. HODLHODL is a competitor just like localbitcoins was but its a website that has now been effectively suicided. Bisq is code. open source. peer 2 peer. cant be stopped unless everyone stops using it.
Was thinking of Hodlhodl. What happened to them?
they are still around. Have you tried bisq or hodl hodl? I find bisq to be a superier experience to all the others. the others seemed to have uniqe conditions for every offer, each peer with their own rules and process. Bisq uses consensus like bitcoin...all traders have to follow the same rules.
I’ve used bisq myself. You mentioned Hodlhodl suicided. Didn’t know what you meant.
sorry i meant to say localbitcoins...plus they ended up being KYC...pure garbage...there are many copy cats like HODLHODL, localswap, etc....i am sticking to bisq...bitcoin network, consensus, escrow, no KYC...never had a trade fail.
Hey Anna, here’s a great tutorial from #[5]
I think a sufficient solution is to buy BTC on Kraken a withdraw (0 fees) via lightning.
Disagree - Lightning helps privacy but it does not eradicate KYC.
Its not always black and white. Its fine for many people to just buy a few sats from a KYC custodial to get going and experience the technology. Afterwards you can take more privacy focused routes.
That’s why I said the below. And of course newbies will need time to try things out. But I deeply appreciated the guides I’ve had, and I have wished for guides where I didn’t have any.
“y opinion (and some may disagree) is that it’s perfectly fine to hold and use either/both kyc and non-kyc Bitcoin, *AS LONG AS* you always keep both stacks completely separate. Because as soon as you mix your KYC-free coins with KYC’d coins, then your identity gets linked to all of them.”
Or...just keep wallet hopping.
Worth noting many people may not have the option to conform to KYC standards but regardless it should be up to individual to have the right to choose their market.
I've been using BISQ.NETWORK for the last few years to buy and sell without KYC, PEER 2 PEER and I love it! #BISQ
I wan to try Bisq... What sort of extra percent fee do you usually pay for buying bitcoin?
Better take your offer if you're just trying. Making an offer is cheaper, but you need to keep your Bisq application running until someone takes. If you follow this path, put the 1st or 2nd best offer and improve the offer by editing it until it's taken.
You can edit the price but not the amount of BTC to trade.
Another thing to have in mind is that the bigger the offer, the lower the fees, so if you trade less than 100USD the offer will be harder to be taken. Some people want to try with 50 or less USD and gets frustrated.
Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t just using a custodial lightning wallet funded from a central exchange be private enough? How long you think Wallet of Satoshi can continue to operate without intervention? Seems like this is a great way to have a small cash account for people seeking privacy.
That’s a fair point, although the exchange would still know how much BTC you purchased (and possibly spent). They just wouldn’t know who the recipient is or what they spend it on next. (My technical understanding of Lightning privacy here is limited so I could be wrong).
Just like taking cash from a bank to pay for things. I’m not required to keep a list of what I spent that money on. It’s spent gone in the possession of someone new.
That’s true. A couple thoughts
- if you hold the Bitcoin for a while and it’s fiat value increases when you spend it, you could have a taxable event
- this doesn’t help a newcoiner begin building a proper kyc-free stack
Although it might be a reasonable point of “entry” if you need to lock the 20-30K sat anti-scammer collateral on robosats when making a buy, if you don’t have enough kyc-free sats to start out with
The point of entry can be coinbase cryptodotcom whoever. I assume coinbase doesn’t know who walletofsatoshi (could be you or anyone else). Bitcoin can be assumed spent at the moment in time it is sent to wallet of satoshi. Does wallet of satoshi require Kyc to loop in? If not wallet of satoshi could be anybody. However the law may assume it is you unless you can provide proof that it was used in exchange for a good or service from somebody else.
Entry into the Bitcoin economy should be considered one way. Past performance has proven that holding Bitcoin is the best option. Exiting to a centralized network exchange should a last resort and the tax implications need to be considered.
To clarify wallet of satoshi is a hot wallet and should never be utilized to hold anything more than what you would carry in cash in your real wallet. Anything above should be looped out to an on chain address.
But would you be comfortable using Bitcoin that you purchased on Coinbase, sent to WoS, then sent to your cold storage, and considering that kyc? I wouldn’t personally but curious what you think… it’s a couple hops but not much, but LN helps
From a technical standpoint I believe it can be done although the exact process would be too complicated to easily outline. For accounting purposes no. I think it is important to have clear distinctions so that you can stay in compliance with the rules and regulations of your local government. That is unless you want to become a martyr.
Perhaps having a lighting wallet you use to receive and a separate one to spend would make it easiest to draw distinctions and account for what you are doing. If the person you are receiving from has no way to know who you are then I guess it’s achieving “non kyc”
I just think it’s 100 times simpler to strictly segregate KYC and KYC-free Bitcoin, and never need to worry about it lol
Part of the issue with kyc is having your identity linked during the initial purchase. In the gov’s eyes, it means you either still hold the coins or you’re liable for taxes on the capital gains.
Taxes aside (pay your taxes lol), it’s also a record of your Bitcoin buys which, if leaked, puts you at risk of theft etc.
It’s without a doubt better than nothing and a good idea for getting started. Just maybe best to keep those sats separate from a non-kyc stack you put in cold storage.
Auto zapjoin ring incoming