Replying to Avatar Dikaios1517

Hadn't thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. So long as spam isn't an issue, there's no demand for paid relays. No one feels any pain from not having them. Therefore, the best way to drive demand for paid relays is to generate spam.

That said, I wouldn't accuse any particular paid relay operator of being behind the recent spam attack without some pretty damning evidence, and I don't think anyone has accused any particular relay operator. At least not that I have seen.

Chances are that the bulk of what most of us would consider spam is just being perpetrated by people who like to cause trouble simply because they can, or because they think they are making a point.

Spam on public relays is inevitable, no matter who may be behind it. You will find it on any sufficiently large network where the following are true: 1. It's free and easy to create new identities on the network. 2. New identities can write data others will see without a cost.

On Nostr, we're not able to make it difficult to create a new identity. Nor would we want to. That means our only option for mitigating spam is to impose some form of cost for new identities to write data to relays that others will see. Public relays impose no cost at all, so they are guaranteed to have spam.

The three typical means of imposing costs to writing data to a relay are social, computational, or monetary. WoT relays would be an example of social cost to gain write access. PoW relays would be computational cost, but we hardly see any of these in the wild since most clients don't support adding PoW to notes. And, of course, paid relays come in as the monetary cost option.

It's a tough nut to crack, though, when you are trying to encourage the network to grow. We WANT new users to come here, and we want them to have a pleasant experience so they will stay. Adding social, computational, or monetary costs in their way is antithetical to that goal. Yet, new users are also the ones most likely to be spam bots that will make the experience of new and existing users alike unbearable. Costs should therefore be imposed in such a way that they are virtually unnoticeable to legit new users, but are prohibitive to spammers.

I have a couple ideas how that might be achieved.

I very much doubt this latest round has to do with a paid relay op. We’re in a pretty early and altruistic phase for Nostr all around these days.

But it does showcase the incentive misalignment. Paid relays are certainly are being offered a short-term incentive to make unpaid relays less viable. So just the fact that the network has created that particular temptation to resist is an issue. (I'd imagine this has been a pretty good week for paid-relay sign ups across the board.)

And even on the passive side, you can argue paid relays are short-term incentivised to sit back, not lend their expertise to help stop the spam, and also use situations like this in their marketing. It's just just how you'd want network incentives to be aligned.

What you'd want is a situation where paid relays are directly financially incentivised to participate in the guardianship of the network overall, including that of unpaid relays. (Of course everyone benefits from good network health in the end, but I mean in a direct way, at the protocol level, so short term counter-incentives don't get in the way.)

You’re bang on about the Catch 22 though, curious what your ideas are.

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The ones I have I outlined here:

nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpde8f55w86vrhaeqmd955y4rraw8aunzxgxstsj7eyzgntyev2xtqyghwumn8ghj7mn0wd68ytnhd9hx2tcprdmhxue69uhhyetvv9ujucnjd9nksarzdak8gtnwv46z7q2uwaehxw309ac8ymmc0yhxummnw3ez6un9d3shjtnpwpcz7vehvs6xxvenvgmxgep3x9jnzdf4xd3nxephv9skycn9vsergcnrv5ukzdfsve3nwvnxxucngd35vsenje3cvc6nycm98qekyetrvcuqqgxsazddjmp9y23ldfu6gxserutrewdga7jcz6q7s9exja8yrv8g9ynjq2m6

The first idea probably hinges on DMs working consistently for the notification when someone signs up that you invited, and DMs are quite a mess right now.

The second idea hinges upon more clients supporting PoW. The only one I know I can add PoW with right now is Coracle, but it's off by default.

I am also interested in hearing any ideas you might have about bringing the incentives of paid relays into alignment with participating in the guardianship of the network overall. You had mentioned that the way Bittorrent accomplished this was an example to follow, but I am not terribly familiar with the incentive structure there.

Gotcha, I'm thinking somewhat on those lines.

BitTorrent for the record uses blockchain as part of their wider incentive system, which clearly does oil the gears there, but blockchain wouldn't fly here. Here it would have to be e-cash based (and even then e-cash is still kinda hot-button here.)

I don't actually think unpaid relays work, just temporarily cost-covered relays.

If you implement a 1 sat per event toll, then it's a question of NIP-60 wallets as a default component of a Nostr profile (a lot to work still to be done there to give the user adequate contron) and a way for new users to get initially topped up.

The top-up part could involve an initial stash of cashu tokens P2PK locked to the relay operator, given out following the completion of an onboarding process that also acts as a screening process. For this you need a Nostr "first-top-up marketplace" of sorts, and a lot of specs to govern how the marketplace functions across the protocol.

The incentive for those offering first top-ups through such a marketplace is that users taking advantage can convert in some way (subscribe, etc.) when then run out of their initial Sats. So as a new user you can browse first-top-up options (or at least those that are visible to you based on xyz), see what you'll get, and pick an option, and go through the associated onboarding/screening. You get your first top up, and now you have a relationship with the topper-upper.

The topper-upper is incentivised to help ensure you have a good experience because, again. you can convert. The same as a freemium game being incentivised to ensure the player has enough fun to want to pay for something later.

The key is to make it so such top-ups can't be abused, or at least abused to a degree combatting the abuse negates the benefits. Again you need specs to prevent double-dipping and whatnot. And also time-expired top-up tokens, or perhaps a tiered-stash with upper tiered tokes being unlocked as a result of certain activity. All of this relies entirely on Cashu for the P2PK lock, expiration, condition setting and such.

And then there's the whole regulatory side, which, leave that for now.. But something along the lines of a protocol-defined first-top-up marketplace.