From that point of view, what do you make of Paul calling himself a father to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 4:15?

"For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel." (RSVCE)

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I personally have not regarded Paul as a Christian for a long time (and don't regard his letters as being comparable to scripture)

I also don't believe in ghosts or spirits in general, though, so probably my opinion is of little interest

Throwing out the majority of the New Testament that the entirety of Christianity has held as canon is a bold move, brother.

The Catholics like to talk about being guided by tradition and the magisterium rather than scripture alone, but ultimately how do you decide which tradition to follow? How do you decide what is legitimate magisterium and what is not?

For that matter, how do you decide what is legitimate scripture and what is not?

If it comes down to reason, then there is nothing bold about my move.

One tradition is founded by Christ, and all others are made up.

Does yours have an unbroken lineage of succession tracing itself back to Peter, on whom Christ said he would build his church?

How do you know that Christ said that?

How do you know that Christ had the capacity to truthfully make such a claim (ie by virtue of divinity) ?

Presumably scripture, but then how do you know what is and is not scripture?

What is at the bottom of it, if not reason?

Talk to Descartes and tell me how far you get with pure reason.

I have indoor plumbing, so apparently pretty far

“You can only find truth with logic if you have already found truth without it.”

–G.K. Chesterton

i believe in GOoD because life is better when i do. i didn't like sermons & little scripture, but took a natural path. Love is baselayer! t-y Lord & bless my mess. (*_*)

*sighs*

I don't think that you really want to go there, considering how awful many of the popes have been and how very far from the path the catholic church has strayed, starting even before it became the Roman Catholic church.

The moral quality of the popes does not change my view about whether they are of the line that Christ established.

It sure the heck does for me since I don't recognize the church as needing any other centralized leadership aside from Jesus, since the church is the bride of Christ. The church should recognize only Jesus as the head of the family.

Appeal to tradition is a fallacy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

So is appeal to Wikipedia 🤣

That's why the site has notes to external links

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition#Notes

I don't think it's inappropriate to acknowledge a position that someone holds. For example, someone might be a teacher, but Jesus said don't call them "Teacher so and so." I think it would have been fine for Timothy to acknowledge Paul as his father in the Gospel, but wrong for him to refer to Paul as "Father Paul." Thus, it may not be a problem to refer to the church fathers as a class of writers and leaders in the early church, but saying Father Ignatius or Father Augustine would probably be wrong.

By that standard, then, should we not call our own parents Father and Mother?

Jesus said you have to hate them, right?

That's a good question, and I don't have all the answers. What is your understanding of how to interpret what Jesus is saying as far as calling no man father, or rabbi or teacher?

It would seem that Jesus is speaking somewhat hyperbolically in his denunciation of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who take on such titles in order to exalt themselves. This is clear because he concludes by saying "whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted" (Matthew 23:12).

Likewise, it would seem that we are not to take it completely literally when Jesus says that we must hate our father and mother, for he also says that those who voice literal hatred in terms such as "raca" or "you fool" are liable to judgement and hell. Thus it cannot be that Jesus is prescribing hatred.

Rather, our love for God should be such that, relative to it, our affection for parents is as hatred. Likewise we should not seek or insist upon honorifics for ourselves, but it is not wrong for someone to use a title of respect when addressing another.

I agree with everything you said except for that last bit "...but it is not wrong for someone to use a title of respect when addressing another." Jesus did say don't be called but also don't call others <title>. It would be nice if someone had asked a follow up "But what about your "natural father and mother?" But maybe that's the difference: spiritual titles versus natural titles, with the former to be avoided. Like, it might not be wrong to refer to someone as Professor Jones, for example, or Doctor Smith, or even Mayor so and so, when talking about secular things. But within the church we should avoid titles, is my thinking on this.</p> </div> <div class="nested-replies limit-depth"> <div class="note reply-note depth-6" id="note-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf"> <div class="note-header"> <a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9"> <img src="https://image.nostr.build/9aa5273e18ac177e8b833afa697b145ec0ed203b41014f8cbaa0bc2911f451c0.jpg" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy"> </a> <div class="note-info"> <a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9" class="author-link"> <span class="note-author-name" title="70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9"> MichaelJ </span> </a> <a href="/post/b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T05:11:46Z"> <span class="note-date">1y ago</span> </a> </div> <button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button> </div> <div class="note-body" id="body-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf"> <div class="note-content"> <p>That seems to me to be a somewhat incoherent position. If someone holds a legitimate position, it is natural in our use of language to use the term of address that goes with that position. It is clear that Jesus is saying that we should not pridefully seek station for ourselves, nor should we be sycophants and give others accolades they do not deserve. However, I fail to see the substantial distinction between acknowledging a spiritual station and according an honorific proper to that station.</p><p>If Paul is a spiritual father to the church in Corinth, it would be strange to say that he ought never address the Corinthians as "my children in Christ," or some such title accordant to their relative stations. Likewise, if the Corinthians can call Paul a spiritual father, it would be counterintuitive to say that they can never address him directly as such. The honorific in such a case is given out of love and respect rooted in Christ; it is not insisted upon out of pride, nor is it bestowed out of a fawning servility.</p> </div> <div class="nested-replies limit-depth"> <div class="note reply-note depth-7" id="note-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f"> <div class="note-header"> <a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491"> <img src="https://image.nostr.build/f8b456b8de3078596ad6dcbb2a05d3c23b530af53efd8b431af8675593d4f419.gif" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy"> </a> <div class="note-info"> <a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491" class="author-link"> <span class="note-author-name" title="dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491"> Marakesh 𓅦 </span> </a> <a href="/post/b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T05:29:41Z"> <span class="note-date">1y ago</span> </a> </div> <button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button> </div> <div class="note-body" id="body-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f"> <div class="note-content"> <p>Out of an attempt to be faithful to Jesus' words as I currently understand them I will avoid using such titles, and it is my hope that people are not offended because I don't.</p> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-b9ef0375260126be36a99b840a6b43d51d66f3ad7828253ac41e375d1392894f" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-b6a257f2699b92a928feab01a49f6a4ba1c074829f9cc13ca83debbe0f4c6bbf" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-e651eb5df63e627df46c815ef4a35b9206d207128b60448aaad6e750ee5cbb4a" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-a60d500e3cbbb0b6ec76e708cc09b89cf834cc2ed3045a458d501354de824cf8" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-338503b768c42838d21e2987eb4b48f5e10b66fde3d0074b9010d68fea958283" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> <div class="note reply-note depth-3" id="note-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822"> <div class="note-header"> <a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9"> <img src="https://image.nostr.build/9aa5273e18ac177e8b833afa697b145ec0ed203b41014f8cbaa0bc2911f451c0.jpg" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy"> </a> <div class="note-info"> <a href="/user/70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9" class="author-link"> <span class="note-author-name" title="70122128273bdc07af9be7725fa5c4bc0fc146866bec38d44360dc4bc6cc18b9"> MichaelJ </span> </a> <a href="/post/6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T04:26:53Z"> <span class="note-date">1y ago</span> </a> </div> <button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button> </div> <div class="note-body" id="body-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822"> <div class="note-content"> <p>Then why does he, from the cross, entrust Mary to John's care saying to him "behold your mother," and to her "behold your son?" Was he telling John he ought to hate Mary?</p> </div> <div class="nested-replies "> <div class="note reply-note depth-4" id="note-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb"> <div class="note-header"> <a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491"> <img src="https://image.nostr.build/f8b456b8de3078596ad6dcbb2a05d3c23b530af53efd8b431af8675593d4f419.gif" class="note-avatar" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy"> </a> <div class="note-info"> <a href="/user/dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491" class="author-link"> <span class="note-author-name" title="dace63b00c42e6e017d00dd190a9328386002ff597b841eb5ef91de4f1ce8491"> Marakesh 𓅦 </span> </a> <a href="/post/11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb" class="note-date-link" title="2024-09-12T04:33:05Z"> <span class="note-date">1y ago</span> </a> </div> <button class="collapse-toggle" onclick="toggleNote('11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb')" title="Collapse/Expand">[-]</button> </div> <div class="note-body" id="body-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb"> <div class="note-content"> <p>No, I don't believe he's actually telling us to hate anyone, because that contradicts his commands that we love everyone. I think it was a hebraism meaning that our love for God should exceed our love for our parents or anyone else, to the point that it almost looks like we hate our parents in comparison to our love and loyalty to God. God comes first. I was being a little cheeky in my response because I don't have a good answer to your question. 😅</p><p>I think Jesus committed his mother into John's care because his other brothers like James probably weren't there at the cross. But he doesn't tell John to call her "Mother Mary."</p> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-11dbf9be78294311b434c881d3bead09a23b51176bfd2d2728d32ec3aa9f8fcb" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-6f4ff8f3afd833901b3e7451d3874ff136a3187fdf2013982d1923f076108822" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-578e09b6eee3c2e84e27bbb19dce8c9ab37e170d22c5bb0c735d0206e923d2a8" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-5287d53b65e01c1682258426196604937bc8c0ffa737d80d7d09870cc3c576f3" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <div class="collapsed-indicator" id="ind-2c16d433bd7e3fa485fbf578d37fda3d133b0fb60a3b1edccf4950cbaf50455d" style="display: none;"> <span class="collapsed-text">Thread collapsed</span> </div> </div> </div> </div> <script> function toggleNote(noteId) { const body = document.getElementById('body-' + noteId); const indicator = document.getElementById('ind-' + noteId); const toggle = document.querySelector('#note-' + noteId + ' .collapse-toggle'); if (body.style.display === 'none') { body.style.display = 'block'; indicator.style.display = 'none'; toggle.textContent = '[-]'; } else { body.style.display = 'none'; indicator.style.display = 'block'; toggle.textContent = '[+]'; } } </script> </main> </div> </body> </html>