Now that I've had time to sleep on the "ZBD" issue. I feel that my reasoning yesterday for continuing to discuss this client wasn't so much about ZBD itself, it was because of me being shocked an appalled at the toxicity being sent towards ZBD users. We often say how the vibe on Nostr is different and how we embody positivity, but that hasn't been shown the last few days towards ZBD users.

It's okay to bash a client and securitize it's implementation of Nostr. This is how the protocol grows. However, it's not cool to do this towards brand new Nostriches. They didn't do anything wrong. They're mostly just people looking to play games and stack some sats. There's nothing wrong with that.

This should be a teaching moment for them. This should be a knowledge exchange. We do this for new Bitcoiners, right? We teach them about self custody. The same can be applied here. Instead of telling someone why you feel Coinbase isn't the solution for them, you can tell them why you feel ZBD isn't the solution for them.

Remember, we're trying to #grownostr here, so you need to explain everything in a cool and calm manner here. You could even write a long and precise guide so that you can just give them the noteID or link to the web site.

If we truly believe that Nostr is for everyone and Nostr is open, then we should do better and explain better. We're not toxic. We left that conversation on Twitter for a reason, because we want to build and change the future for the better.

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Discussion

Everything #Nostr is good signal.. up to the individual to choose nothing wrong with #ZBD very engaging on boarding app with play and earn sat games great approach to on boarding to #Bitcoin maybe not the most secure client for Nostr but the Signal is growing that’s the point….

It's just different. We can explain the differences better though. For example. If you don't own your NSEC, then you don't own the data. Then explain why, what this means, and how it can be solved. You could even recommend to not use ZBD until their nsec export is built and we have answers on key generation records.

For the masses that’s tech talk IMO for the signal to reach out none tech people are the majority wish that wasn’t the case #ZBD does a good job on boarding that young demographic.. only a matter of time the more you know hopefully they do fix the Nsec issues

He's right.

This is a free speech protocol.

We are going to find users we don't agree with.

At the end of the day it's up to us to model the behaviour we wish to see in the world.

Be you.

What others think of you is none of your business.

nostr:nevent1qqs970jhjjj6kt2gfxmtqlu92pwgl9zzthym5rcfakcuy6tdhgy9lncpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqzyqlhwrt96wnkf2w9edgr4cfruchvwkv26q6asdhz4qg08pm6w3djgqcyqqqqqqg7r3zs7

Well said

I dunno but I'm working on some BIP340 schnorr signature stuff that has a ZBD/NBD badge on it, and it's terrible terrible code. Yes the label says "Naive" but it looks like it was written by a bunch of 13 year olds who just spent the weekend learning Go.

Maybe it was. Does that mean you should bash an end user for using it? No. They don't know any better. Tell them why. Teach them.

I'm too busy trying to code and also trying not to spend too much time here.

As far as criticising security and threat model flaws in anything, as a programmer I'd like to see such criticism even louder, actually.

People should not be blase about this stuff. Learning that it's not all peaches and cream should be lesson one.

As far as criticising other people's approaches to presentation, I say go ahead and say whatever you want but you're on shaky ground if you use collectivist arguments and plural pronouns and other such marks of weak thinking.

Criticising the users, on the other hand, you are very much in agreement with me. Specify the target of the criticism. If you wanna criticise newbies, you can go back to the mute list. Friendliness is the first rule of being welcoming. No amount of blunt hammering is gonna teach anyone anything except that you are a twat.

Not you, of course, you seem reasonable.

It has been more than a decade since we had this freshness and light we see with nostr. All the veterans of the distorted silo social networks don't know what is happening here, and that's awesome, cos they can stay the fuck away, tyvm.

I agree we should not be toxic to newcomers, but lack of toxicity is very low on the list of reasons we need nostr over twitter.

Twitter is centralized and can moderate toxicity more easily. We are lucky to be early into nostr at a point where toxicity generally hasn’t been an issue.

Let’s continue to not be toxic and actually help the Nostriches, but we also can’t not stand up for our ideals when a popular client is in extremely clear violation.

They should have done a profile shot of Jack for that 🤣

Sorry, but nothing about this changes my opinion that as ambassadors to nostr we can’t let other people’s toxicity make us compromise on our values.

Nostr is in its infancy and ZBD running poor client practices sets a terrible precedent. Any toxicity should certainly be directed at ZBD and not the users, but the every user using that platform is unknowingly hurting nostr and should be told about the problems.

Nostr doesn’t exist to free us from toxicity - toxicity is here and will always be here. Nostr exists to free us from the likes of twitter and Facebook. This isn’t just about censorship. It’s about ownership of your identity. It’s about interoperability. ZBD is recreating a centralized platform and trying to benefit off of the nostr network effect. It is literally in direct violation of the success and ethos of the protocol.

Not to say it’s not a great video! It is and your segment is spot on. Just not relevant to the issue here IMO

I did not see anyone attacking ZBD users but ZBD.

sadly, it was there. it was just misappropriated anger.

Derek is there away to check if you entered your nsec in another client ????? I may have at the start of this nostr thing I know I did try a good few of them 🤔

you probably did if you tried out other clients. there's no way to tell besides opening up the client on your phone and seeing if it signs into your profile. i always test new clients with a burner or brand new nsec. maybe you did the same? a lot of people do that.

Ye that's good advise for sure , I might even create a test profile just for trying new clients that won't matter if nsec gets compromised

If nostr is the solution, then how people interact won't have any significant influence on adoption. Not saying being rude, but also pointing out that asking people to be a certain way won't matter.

Kind of like saying don't use Bitcoin to buy illegal stuff in the early days...

What technology enables may not be what you like but the fact that it enables it is what is necessary for its adoption.

hard disagree. most people don't understand the need for decentralization or the need for censorship resistance until they themselves need it or a friend or family member needs it. the community is what keeps a lot of newcomers using nostr. in the long run, what you're saying is correct, in the long run it won't matter, because the community is large enough to support itself, but in the beginning stages, we have to support one another or we won't get anywhere, we won't make it to that point and reach critical mass.

Well said. I will evaluate my recent posts and attempt to ensure my criticism remains aimed at ideas and not people.

Custody of nsecs is not in the spirit of nostr and we shouldn't accept such behaviour in a client. That said, I totally agree with Derek. Don't hate on the ZBD users, they might not know too much about notes, keys and other stuff yet. Welcome them with the hug emoji and teach them a thing or two about nostr 🫂

nostr:note1tul909994vk5sjdkkplc25zu372yyhwfhg8snmd3cf5kmwsgtl8ssxwj7m

what's a zbd

🤙 🫂

Don’t hate, educate.

Agreed

Don't hate the users hate ZBD 😅

Adoption comes in waves, ZBD is trying something and like custodial LN, people find it comfortable, and others might migrate to something more robust as they enjoy the service but don't want to give up so much control to use it

Correct in individual arguments below. Incorrect as a whole. If you undoubtedly think that nothing wrong with zbd, you may prefer to handover your nsec to zbd.