Replying to Avatar PizzAndy🍕

So I would say this is a very true statement for the majority of consumer credit that we see today.

However I believe you're neglecting two aspects that we don't generally see today because of artificial interest rates:

1. The interest rate of the loan would be directly proportional to the risk associated to it.

Because our brains are biologically the same as they were 100k years ago, people will always want more than they truly have. There will always be an opportunity to make and lose money through credit due to this.

The rate of interest would be determined knowing that the value of bitcoin will continue to increase. Let's say by then Bitcoin increases in value relative to everything else ~5% on average YOY. The rate of the loan would need to cover all the expenses+profit to service the loan, plus that 5%. The profit is directly correlated to the risk of the investment.

2. Land has inherent value and always will. Things need places to be. Owning land is the second best asset after Bitcoin. Food needs a place to grow, livestock needs a place to graze. Even waste products need to go somewhere.

The house itself will decrease in value over time, but land is still scarce and has value. Once land's true utility value stabilizes in a deflationary Bitcoin economy, I would expect land value (on average) to keep steady, or slightly lag behind Bitcoin.

That's a long winded way to say that land can still be repossessed and sold as an insurance to secure the loan same as now.

A loan is nothing more than a gamble of the future. And I don't ever expect people to stop gambling. It's the one addiction where the next hit might actually change everything for the better.

We see real-estate as an asset if you are really utilising it to generate, something of value; food, tools, living etc

What’s the ratio of properties being used for utility purposes against how many properties are bought as a piggy bank?

In other words, let’s assume that houses could go back to their utility value. We would say that much more people will own their own house and less people would use real estate as an investment (piggy bank)?

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Living in a space is also a utility. We would absolutely see a sharp decline in the amount of debt, and the use of property as investment would decline.

To say we will be rid of debt entirely ignores the human desire to live beyond their means and to desire that which they do not have.

The responsible ones will live debt free, those without restraint and self control will continue to be indebted.

Agreed! 🙏 we think bitcoin is reaching some of us to self control

I think we are forgetting that debt/credit is a 2 way street. As a lender, lending must be both profitable and preferably low risk. The more sound the thing I am lending, the less inclined I will be to risk it on a high risk endeavour. Houses that decline in value over time will be high risk vs the Bitcoin being risked against them.

Lending and credit in a fiat system is much more practical because the ‘money’ you are lending out/borrowing is trash and houses appreciate compared to trash but not compared to sound money (BTC).

It is a challenging paradigm shift.

The wont of man is truly unquenchable and it cannot be swayed by logic. A fool and his money will soon be parted and even the hardest money in the world doesn't change that.

I think we call that the economy, a crazy mix of exact and non exact science, value exists when it has context, there is no such thing as intrinsic value.

I would say a space to occupy has intrinsic value. You can't exist without a space to exist in. The number associated to that value isn't static but it's never zero.

The space you occupy has intrinsic value simply because it allows you to be. Without action, its value might seem neutral, but restriction highlights its worth. Similarly, water in a glass is inherently neutral—its value explodes in the desert but fades by a river. Context transforms neutral existence into profound significance. Value is context-born, not inherent.

I typed out a really long reply but then took a step back and it was more of an argument on the usage of the words and it was boring and not really furthering thought so I'll save you the time, lol.

Fun conversation though!

🙏 thoughtful disagreements are fun thanks to you for making us think deeply 😉☝️