Nostr Web Client

All the people I know who actually understand the world around them are starving for people who actually give a shit & who actually want to learn. Any intelligent ancap knows that there is more value to be gained in trading & working with an equal than with those who are less knowledgable.

There is no exploitation in a natural & healthy capitalist system. Employers often educate people, that's why previous job experience makes an employee more valuable. But lets focus on exploitation. If you hire me to come to your house & clean & fold your clothes, you privide the washer & dryer & detergent & electricity & the dirty clothes, & then you pay me for my labor. I am being paid to transform a pile of dirty clothes into clean folded laundry. You do not owe me any portion of the output at the end, they are still your clothes. You do not owe me your washer & dryer or any other part of the means of production. There is no exploitation involved, you provided all inputs & then paid me for my contribution to the end result. That is how any factory works too. The only exploitation is in taxation, and in govt incentivized debt that makes it difficult to save & get ahead, and in govt regulations that destroy job options & make employees compete for jobs rather than having employers have to compete for employees.

frozear 2y ago

I've had several decades of hearing capitalist propaganda and so have you because you repeat it so very well.

You're talking about the early stages when its person to person. As the hierarchy develops the gap when the original descendants ascend themselves to a higher class. You end up with mortgage-holders, financiers, worthless heirs and landlords.

How do you account for the fact that the richest 100 people have as much wealth and power as the bottom 2.5 billion?

These hierarchies and class systems are what the left is against. I am libertarian-left; I am not a communist because don't think the ends justify the means. You can't get liberty through tyranny.

Again, its okay to believe whatever you want. You might even be right. However, whatever you believe is not Anarchism and it isn't Agorism. We can have vigorous discussion all day but it's disingenuous when you try to nullify an entire ideology by changing the name and claiming it as your own.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Jeff Swann 2y ago

The pareto principle always applies. There will always be outliers. The only problem today is that many of the outliers are "cantillionaires" who got rich via political protections & fiat money creation rather than by creating value for others.

But what power does Saylor's Bitcoin give him over you & your life & your Bitcoin? If he cannot devalue the money you hold to enrich himself then he isn't harming you. If I build 1000 houses and rent them to people, why would people rent them from me unless they prefer my houses above all other options? Why didn't they build their own?

In a healthy free market the amount of value that belongs to someone else has nothing to do with you. People do not get rich at the expense of others, they only get rich to the benefit of others. If I earn 1000 Bitcoin then I have created far more than 1000 Bitcoin worth of value in the lives of other people. And it was those people who decided for themselves that what I had to sell would improve their life more than the money they voluntarily parted with to aquire my goods or services. If each individual isn't able to decide for themselves what makes their own lives better, then who is? There is no fairer way of determining the merit of a person's contribution to society than by free trade & sound money.

frozear 2y ago

I agree with a lot of what you said here. Except there's no way in hell you're going to build 1000 houses. You couldn't even build that in 10 lifetimes.

Jeff Swann 2y ago

The number really isn't the point, but there are already companies 3d printing concrete houses in just a few days. What is impossible today might just be normal tomorrow.

frozear 2y ago

The number is important because there's no way someone can say "I built 1000 houses" unless they were exploiting the labor of others. It should take no more than 5-10 houses to teach all your employees to be full partners in house building or start house building businesses of their own.

Jeff Swann 2y ago

If I am building a house to sell & you are a plumber who I have hired to do the plumbing in many of the houses I have built, why would you want to be a partner? As a plumber you get paid whatever we agree to as soon as your part of the job is done. You make your money on your labor & by buying plumbing parts cheaper than I can get them thanks to your relationships with plumbing parts producers.

If instead you were a partner in the overall construction of the house then you would have to hand over money in the building process & you don't get paid until the house sells. If there is a downturn in the housing market preventing the house from being purchased you might lose money. Not everyone wants to be a partner.

If I design some new part for a 3d printer & a bunch of 3d printer makers want to include my part in their printers, I just want to sell them my part & get paid immediately. I don't want whether I get paid for work I've already done to depend on other people's sales & business decisions & whether they market their stuff right or run their company well. I don't want to have to argue with "partners" about what is the best course of action. I don't care if my part adds more profit to their 3d printer making business than I collect myself. In fact, I kinda hope it does, that means the income I make is something I am more likely able to rely on.

But I do think it is entirely possible that in the not too distant future, a single person may be able to own the equipment needed to build a house by themselves in just a few days. So basically either way you are wrong.

Again, the problem with the left is that they don't actually know how anything works.

frozear 2y ago

Well at least we can agree that removing the state will be better for humanity.

I just hope it can help us rid ourselves of class hierarchy, too.

If you try to use Counter-Economic tactics I'll take that as a win.