Replying to Avatar Guy Swann

It's not about whether it's "in their right" or not. The content of the chain is not arbitrary or something that is divine as long as its natural and pays a fee. Ultimately this is software and an open, adversarial network that needs to be robust. DoS and spam are the ultimate issue of all open networks.

If someone figured out a way to make 1,000,000 unspendable UTXOs in a single transaction or just a handful of blocks are were happily willing to pay those fees while creating a huge, immediate jump in the amount of RAM every node had to have to stay in sync, despite not a single one of them having any monetary use or relation whatsoever, would you consider that "valid" and perfectly fine? If you did, then I would argue that you and I disagree on both the purpose and engineering concerns of the network.

Bitcoin is like a giant, trustless clock, that has no alternative. To stamp a bunch of bullshit images and shitcoins into it is like grabbing a precious time keeping device and using it to hammer a nail. Its dumb, doesn't even work very well, and is directly at odds with why the device is so valuable in the first place. This is *not* about who is willing to pay a fee, this is about the purpose of the network and whether the bloat of data is at odds with the very fundamental value that #Bitcoin provides. This is about the tragedy of the commons putting costs on those who maintain the network, by people who don't even give a shit about the value that the network provides.

Guy, maybe I need to spend more time on the technical side of things to understand your argument. How is the UTXO set stored in ram? And if UTXO bloat is a problem of ram storage instead of dedicated SSD storage, then isn’t that a huge issue which needs to be solved in order to increase the number of UTXOs anyway?

It seems like your main argument is that it’s a stupid way to use Bitcoin and creates bloat, which I definitely agree with, but I’m confused about how that relates to the issues people are voicing with the fee market. And if these transactions are uniquely causing excessive ram consumption, at what point is my 4gb ram Raspberry Pi no longer going to be able to sync?

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bitcoin core keeps a cache of the UTXO set in RAM for fast access.

iirc, there are 94M UTXOs currently. gonna take a hell of a lot more than 1M UTXOs to cause a spike in ram. also, the max number of outputs you could create in a block is something like 13k (back of the napkin math)

How many bytes are UTXOs? Wouldn’t 94M UTXOs @ 140 bytes each be about 1.3GB of ram?

And is there another way to store the UTXO set? How do pruned nodes manage it?

Thanks for the explanation though. I enjoy guys podcast a lot but that explanation may have slipped a bit through the cracks