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Odin makes no claim to historicity. He, like the Greek gods, is a complete non-starter. Just because a bunch of people believed in something doesn't make it credible.

Bill Cypher 10mo ago

That is how Odin was first presented to you. He was 100% presented to the people at that time as having historicity. He had stories explaining his time before man, in higher realms during the time of man, actions on earth in the presence of men, and what he would be up to at the end of time. All just like the god of christianity. Same for believers in the Greek gods during the time when they were commonly believed. Only later was their historicity removed.

It is clear you were first told about Odin by someone who did not believe in Odin. How old were you when you first heard about Odin? What percentage of the people you grew up around believed in Odin? How many hours of instruction about the greatness of Odin and importance of following Odin's ways have you had in your life?

What about Jesus? Were you first told about Jesus by someone who believes in Jesus or doesn't? How old were you when you first heard about Jesus? What percentage of the people you grew up around believed in Jesus? How many hours of instruction about the greatness of Jesus and the importance of following Jesus ways have you had?

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Discussion

hodlbod 10mo ago

Yes, I get your point. We're all shaped by our environment. But that's ok, there's no "view from nowhere" that sets us ethically above everyone else. We do our best with what we're given.

But I disagree about Odin. I don't have to adopt the frame of the original adherents in order to evaluate claims of historicity. Odin wasn't a person (at least we have no evidence that he was). There is plenty of documentation about Jesus and the early Church (even if you reject their claims). Odin also doesn't solve any of the many philosophical problems that existence presents. He's just another version of infinite regress (although the idea of a personal god obviously has elements of truth compared with Christianity).

Bill Cypher 10mo ago

Only the Bible claims to be accurate and timely accounting of Jesus as a historical figure. Other than that we have only "records" created by christians years after his death. To cite the bible is circular reasoning.

You can't cite the bible as proof of Jesus if I can't cite the Poetic Edda as proof of Odin.

Mohammad has better records of being a real historical figure by non believers written during his lifetime than Jesus. Will you convert to Islam?

Bill Cypher 10mo ago

Odin's words from Hávamál:

"I know that I hung on a windy tree

nine long nights,

wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,

myself to myself,

on that tree of which no man knows

from where its roots run."

That was a self sacrifice in the quest for wisdom. He lost his eye in another bid for more wisdom. His Ravens names translated are Thought and Memory.

With the binding of Fenrir Odin promised Fenrir not to bind him so they could get the bindings on. Fenrir was being bound to attempt to delay Ragnarok. Tyr offered to put his hand in Fenrirs mouth as collateral that Fenrir would not be bound. When Fenrir realizes the deception Tyr loses his hand showing that even gods have to face consequences for breaking their promises.

Moral tales on how valuable greater wisdom is and showing that it requires self sacrifice. Also on the value of honesty and keeping your word. Certainly applicable to life today.

hodlbod 10mo ago

Categorically different from "Jesus was a Judaite from Nazareth". But also interesting how closely the crucifixion matches. Could Odin have been derived from Christ?

vinney...axkl 10mo ago

I assume you're familiar with the other side of this coin, right? All the pre-Christian myths and traditions that bear a "striking similarity" to the Jesus story (but came first).

hodlbod 10mo ago

Yes, Mithras, Krishna, Tammuz, etc. The parallels are either tenuous or the mythology is ahistorical.

Diacone Frost 10mo ago

I can just as easily say: christians made sure their version of reality is historical.

Bill Cypher 10mo ago

No more ahistorical than Jesus mythology.

We have no evidence Christians made it into Norse Territory until hundreds of years after the story of Odin on the tree.

I don't think the mythology of any of those other gods is any more ahistorical than Jesus mythology. Much of Jesus story changed after he was gone also.

Dionysius was born to a god father and mortal mother dismembered and resurrected over 1000 years before Jesus was born.

These story points are good memes so they spread. Nothing magical about any of this, just story points that scratch the itches of the human brain just right. Peter Parker was resurrected after the Thanos snap. A future historian might argue that Spiderman was a more dominant god of our time than Jesus based on his bigger box office score.