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This episode was frustrating because Murray was doing the same kind of dancing around the topic as the other guys

I said over on X that we’re going to have to come to some settlement between “The experts lied about a lot of important stuff” (absolutely true) and therefore “Expertise isn’t a thing” (absolutely false).

Murray did a piss poor job of debating in that episode, but I take his point about “punching jelly”. If someone makes a career out of historical lectures, such as in Cooper’s case, it’s completely legitimate to criticize their takes, and they “Hey I never said I was an historian” defense is bullshit. If you’re going to say something, stand behind it or clearly state that you were wrong.

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Discussion

mrclownworld 9mo ago

Yeah but he’s not wrong about Churchill… the first world leader to order intentional unrestricted aerial bombing of civilians in the 20th century.

Al’s Lacrosse 9mo ago

There was some very unrestricted warfare going on against civilians by the country he was fighting. Maybe Churchill was the first “on our side”.

mrclownworld 9mo ago

This is factually incorrect. The luftwaffe accidentally dropped one bomb off course that hit civilians in London and Churchill responded with two weeks of bombing civilians in Berlin before Hitler eventually responded in-kind. This is not disputed in mainstream history, but it’s glossed over.

mrclownworld 9mo ago

Furthermore, Hitler and Stalin didn’t ever even build the capacity to win the war by unrestricted aerial bombings of civilian targets. That was only the UK/US.

mrclownworld 9mo ago

History is written by the victors, as Churchill himself said.

Al’s Lacrosse 9mo ago

The Germans were real careful not to hit civilians in the USSR, were they?

mrclownworld 9mo ago

Their aerial capabilities were focused on the battle lines, not bombing civilians. Not saying this was necessarily a moral choice, it may have just been strategic but it’s remarkable in hindsight, given that aerial supremacy won the war, that Hitler and Stalin didn’t endeavor to achieve it the way the Brits and Americans did. Failure of imagination? Maybe. Moral rectitude? Probably not. But it’s what happened.