So european exchanges are one by one implementing more hurdles for plebs to stack sats:
Transfer of fund regulation, travel rule, satoshi-test …
How are you european nostriches going to deal with this? Comply or stack more non-kyc sats?
#bitcoin #asknostr #askeurope
The ECB and EU Commission are doing this. The exchanges have no choice but play along or stop catering to EU customers. All of this reminds me of the EU segregation of the online poker market some years ago. Overregulating assholes.
Right. But still, a pleb has to decide what way to choose in the future.
Buying non-kyc seems to be a good move for stacking sats but will you be able to sell big amounts of non kyc sats in the future?
Comply and let them track every move is the worst option imo.
Or get nokyc and outlive them.... How crazy is it?
For the time beein just stack nonkyc sats.
Nowadays it is posible to buy a lot of day to day stuff with btc and i think/hope as the comunity keeps growing the posibilities to live out of btc will grow accordingly.
I remember not so many years ago it was quite common when buying a house, to pay one part in cash, and only declare (and pay taxes) for the amount paid by transfer. I think almost noone does this anymore, because you cannot pay that much in cash, but with btc...
Also I am confident the market will find solutions to any hurdle governments will implement.
Good point! 🙏
What about Swiss exchanges like pocket?
I assume they will have to comply with all the rules if they want to serve European customers.
Robosats, Bisq, Hodl Hodl, Azteco
Good places to stack sats 💪
But how to get back into fiat when you want to buy something more expensive like a house and paying with btc is not an option?
Good question. I am in the US and therefore not up to speed on the current environment in Europe or the regulatory changes occurring. So take my response with a grain (or more) of salt.
I *think* you can also sell BTC for fiat on those exchanges but I may be wrong. Someone can fact check me on that.
Moving funds strategically to Strike when you want to sell for fiat may also be an option. Probably will have the same regulatory/KYC'm hurdles as other exchanges but good to double check.
For purchases that are big but not the scale of a home, you could explore options like BitRefil. I have not used them though so cannot personally attest to the quality or experience of their services.
Lastly you can explore bitcoin backed loans as an option. I have mixed feelings about using btc as collateral and have no idea what your options in Europe for that sort of thing are, but may be worth considering. Debt is obviously risky so don't take this as me advocating strongly for the option, but if done carefully it would be a way to leverage your stack for fiat purchases without having to sell your bitcoin.
Thanks mate! Good thoughts about the btc backed loans for bigger purchases. I didn’t see that option 🙏
Oh and yes, you definitely can sell on non KYC platforms like robosats, but only the usual amounts (100-1,000 usd).
Bitrifill is also a good idea! Just found out they offer a card that can be tooped up with btc. Interesting 🧐
You ever used robosats?
I’m always extremely scared about non kyc platforms like robosats and peach to get scammed
Probably an overreaction from my side
The risk is always there but robosats solved this quite good: both parties have to make a security deposit. The seller would loose his sats if he disappeared.
There are also some best practices you could follow to mitigate risk:
Cool! So it works pretty good
In my opinion all p2p solutions have one major issue. how to pay without leaking your own data!
IBAN, Revolut and so on are really bad in terms of privacy / data protection
Agreed
this topic is discussed far too little. cash by mail is great, but not possible with robosats due to the concept
The question is: to trust one single different individual every time you make a trade or trust one government controlled exchange with every trade you make?
If somebody wanted to get the data they could set many offers on p2p
With kyc exchanges pretty much all purchases can be matched together. They get a pretty good picture of what you own and have more detailed information such as your address.
With non kyc buying such as robosats, every single trade is treated as an individual event. Next time you buy or sell you get a completely fresh id. So the potential tracking institution at the other end has less information from you in the first place and it is much more difficult to string all of that together or to „proof“ what you own. Still, risk here is that more different individuals can get hold of your payment data but that’s also true for buying stuff on ebay or other places
The problem is not with robosats ... robosats implementation is pretty solid, but payments like revolut and bank transfer are not
I agree, but still, in the end you have to decide if you would rather expose all of your personal information and transaction history to one big government controlled institution or expose only payment details and a one off transaction to many different entities.
Also consider which is the sweeter honeypot for criminal individuals looking for victims
so the first one I more fore state level attacks but the second is more for casual criminals
If you are going to consider a bitcoin-backed loan, take a look at Firefish.io: peer-to-peer, non-custodial, BTC only.
Ask me for a discount code if interested.
(Disclosure: I work for Firefish 😉)
Yes, this would be the way to go for me. Bitrefill for small amounts that immediately get converted into vouchers. Robosats for mid amounts (for large amounts you can always insert multiple orders or adjust the premium accordingly to speed things up). Bisq for large amounts (for real paranoid prepper atmosphere use cash by mail 🙃).
The most complicated trick here is to always keep a sufficiently large stack of cash aside to avoid situations in which you are forced to sell sats.
So far I haven’t had the need to sells sats via any KYC platform. Luckily.
How you are going to deal with it nostr:npub1w8rrew9yye3lla4hr5uuh7zx9he6qu2rd55hwx9ctyyp0rjqz45q9ch663 nostr:npub1pyzvmpujlpcy9whydlcay3gkm02wu0flehua3afdwqt22yqt33cqe6k0h8 ?
Kyc sats I bought in the past and that wallet is ofcourse compromised and I will keep doing that for small occasional dip buying
Most of my dca is through non kyc trades with friends I have
Also what I’m thinking of is what about Strike. What if I buy there kyc sats but send it with lightning.. pretty hard to track them
Either way I’m not “that” scared about kyc sats. I understand a lot of people’s feelings about it but as long as I can hold my own keys in my brain… Come tax those
Absolutely agree. As long as your KYC stack is much smaller than your non KYC stack, why bother. Let them enjoy doing a satoshi test on your 50k KYC sats 🙃
Also who the hell knows what happens to your sats when you send them via LN/Liquid/Arc. Right? 😉😉😉 My understanding that they get lost forever 😉😉😉 Bitcoin is notoriously a scam and all these different second layers are just another type of scam where your sats get stolen 😉😉😉
In the end I don’t think long term hodlers who self custody need to be scared of these absurd laws
Just have patience and move one day to a better jurisdiction and borrow against your stack
What kind of friends do you have that regularly sell the most scarce thing on earth to you?
Yes, the lightning way is definitely a good workaround.
Some plebs are afraid the „come tax those“ approach will not work when the government taxes you for the sats they know you gained ownership regardless if you still have them. They could enforce the law on your hypothetical holdings.
Haha I’d rather not disclose them but you can find a lot of people who are willing to sell at meetups
And I don’t agree with the last point/argument. If you live in a fair judiciary system they’ll have to prove you still have them. And again, just move to a sunny place where you can buy stuff with bitcoin
The higher the price goes, the more stuff you can buy with it
The fact you can store your wealth in your head gives a great amount of peace of mind in this regard 😌
Indeed brother
But I feel your thoughts
I often panic a bit over the fact that you probably will not be able to cash out big chunks of non kyc bitcoin through the traditional route (exchange to bank account) as you’ll have to disclose when and how you bought them and that will get extremely difficult with explaining it’s not money laundering
But hey, if we’ll have those problems it means Bitcoin is crazy high in dollar terms
I encourage my European friends not to comply with tyrannical regulations. Their ignorance and blunt approach will not last 4 more years. The EU is toast…accelerate the demise with peaceful, non-compliance.
Live free. TGFB.
Yeah, i remember someone here posted about his nightmare of sending and selling btc via a kyc exchange in order to buy a house pr do some renovation. I only can imagine the sleepless nights while the bank or exch freezes your 6 or 7 digit fiat amount to go through all proof of funds stuff 😱
Indeed that’s my fear
But hey, let’s move to El Salvador
At least we have some nostrich friends to invite to join us 💪🫂
We should make a list how to cash out bitcoin in alternative ways 🤣
As someone mentioned bitrefill for small amounts and btc backed loans for bigger amounts are two possible ways atm
Buy luxury watches with it and trade them for cash afterwards
Buy gold bars/coins with a bullion shop that accepts bitcoin and sell them for cash afterwards (tax free)
Isn’t there also an official cash limit in the eu? I think it was 10,000€
Yep but who cares
The politicians often get caught with 100,000€ in cash and gold bars in there house 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Bitcoin fixes that
Be careful with luxury watches. Selling them has gotten rather annoying since the fakes have gotten this good. You'll have difficulty finding buyers who won't demand an inspection of the movement at a local dealer who wants to get compensated as well.
In italy the AdE (agenzia delle entrate) can give you sanctions if you owned kyc bitcoin but now they are "officially" no longer yours.
The main rule is that you have to prove yourself not guilty, which translate to "guilty until proven otherwise".
So how do you legally prove that you've lost your bitcoins on a boating accident or they got stolen by somebody?
A possible outcome is you still have to pay the fine if unable to prove it.
Exchanges that are part of TRUST will avoid sending Bitcoin to non-TRUST exchanges due to potential regulatory issues. Additionally, sending to personal wallets will face increasing barriers imposed by exchanges
(The TRUST network is a system that forces VASPs to exchange crypto transaction data, undermining privacy under the pretext of “regulatory compliance)
