This idea that Nostr is "immutable and verifiable", as in being a single source of truth, is the biggest lie in Nostr. So many people misunderstand it. Yes, you can verify **individual events** by their signature... **if you have them**. That's a big if. Authors can delete these events at any time, and once they do, your client will also delete them from your local database. They can ship new versions of replaceable events, and that will make things disappear in your local DB too. If your Client was not active, it would have never seen some of the changes in the first place. Once that happens, you can't "verify" anything anymore.

Nostr, as a database of events, is only "immutable and verifiable" if you have a special relay that can track and store all regular and replaceable events as they happen and reject all types of deletions at all times. There is no way around it. And that relay is a **trusted** entity, since there is no way to verify if that relay hasn't deleted anything it doesn't like. Events have never been "immutable". Events by themselves are only verifiable if you have them. A chain of events is not verifiable unless you secure the storage of the entire chain by yourself in real-time. Nostr doesn't do that for you automatically.

Nostr is not a blockchain. Stop thinking it is one. It was specifically designed to NOT be one. It's not a problem to be solved.

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so except a btc node we must run also our own relay, right? Right?

You must not run one.

But you should run one.

any idea of this kind of service (run a relay) for non technical pleb here? Or I have to do it alone?👀

If you are on Android, you can use #Citrine 🍋

That is a local relay, right on your phone. It doesn't take up much space or bandwidth. It's just a simple local relay, with a very self-explanatory app-interface.

https://github.com/greenart7c3/Citrine

Vitor, does Amethyst verify signatures on events and not show them if the signature fails and/or is missing?

Yep. We verify everything that comes in.

Thank you sir.

immutable

/ĭ-myoo͞′tə-bəl/

adjective

Unable to be changed without exception.

Tell me how this isnt true for regular events.

Deleting an event isnt changing the event.

But the relay could delete it from it's database.

Doesn't change the event, its still immutable

If you can find it. You won't even find 75% of my events for your bullshit "immutability" tracker.

If you can find it, sure.

That first sentence is one of the reasons I made "Hostr". If a nostr user does want immutability and verifiabilty, notes are chronicled on the Hive blockchain. https://github.com/crrdlx/hostr

Although a relay could add a kind of immutability by using OpenTimestamps?

The relay can still delete those timestamps and the events themselves.

The relay can delete the events, but not the timestamps if they are on the bitcoin blockchain.

Who cares about the timestamps hashes in the blockchain if you can't find the event that explains what they were referring to?

Also, the timestamps are for the group of events. So, you need to have the source events to even check if the timestamp includes that specific event or not.

What I am thinking of here is a personal relay, which keeps all your own notes (and others that you wish to preserve), and publishes the timestamps for proof.

I like that though, as long as relays can't replace my messages or post as me.

If a relay censors me the other relays I am on will let it trough, so the solution is being on multiple at once in apps which filtering you agree with or which don't filter at all.

If every relay I am on censors a message that's usually for good reason with it being spam for example.

Yep, that's kinda the point of nostr. We like that feature.

To imagine ones post/event is so important it need be preserved in perpetuity is self-aggrandizing and delusional.

May these words be remembered forever.

It doesn't even make sense to talk about if the global nostr is state is immutable or not, because the global state does not exist.

I get that is the point you're trying to make: there is no consensus.

I think the confusion comes from saying "it's not immutable" sounds like you are implying "it is mutable". But that statement is also not true, because "it" does not exist.

This event does not exist on any of my relays, yet it's accessible 😮😂

Just as everybody won't read what I write, even if they all have a perfect copy of it, Nostr network will always be lossy, and that's fine. Anyone who is afraid to lose any of their notes, can easily maintain their own personal backup.