Replying to Avatar hodlbod

People criticizing nostr apps for their quality are making multiple category errors:

- Individuals (or very small teams) can't produce the same level of quality as large teams, but teams can't exercise as much creativity as individuals

- Optimal UX comes from a need for growth, stemming from a need for profit. Grantees and hobbyists do not have this motive. But for-profit businesses won't be principled about putting the protocol first, while grantees and hobbyists may be.

- Good UX partly comes from experience, and existing best practices. Very little of this is established yet for nostr, both from a design and engineering perspective. We're making it up as we go along.

If you want something new, you have to take the bad with the good. When I started this, my expectation was that it would be a ten year project with a 0% chance of success. Two years in, I'd say we're doing extremely well.

I don't care about growth, and won't for a while. I'm not in it for user numbers or zaps, I want to use software to give my kids a better life. Drop the high time preference, and dig in, because this is going to be a long ride.

With all that said, I do feel a new wave coming in the next year or so, as best practices crystallize, and as existing projects reach a point of maturity where their developers recognize their own limits and need for help. I look forward to seeing teams coalesce to push forward what the creatives started.

This might take the form of more for-profit businesses, but I hope that devs (including myself) will be able to swallow their ego and pitch in on projects that don't belong to them without having to get "hired". The difficulty of this on nostr is of course that the scope of the protocol leaves so many tantalizing possibilities to work on.

For myself, I remain focused on my original mission of serving real-life communities. However, the longer I work on the problem, the larger it becomes. It turns out that there has in fact been decades of work in the space, and there continue to exist many unsolved problems, even without introducing decentralization. It would be hubristic to think that my first attempt at the problem would be either correct or successful. Iteration, exploration, and education are all necessary.

It's very likely that it's impossible for a single developer to cover even a single use case of nostr satisfactorily. We'll all eventually need help. This is just the nature of the project we've set for ourselves.

The first two premises are asserted without evidence.

Quality/stability is in constant tension with pace of innovation. Ensuring stability can slow innovation, while accelerating innovation can introduce more bugs. The constant in this equation is the number of available man-hours. Changing the size of the team changes the amount of man-hours you have to work with, but the stability vs. innovation tradeoff remains.

Optimal UX is not necessarily tied to a need for growth. Better UX is motivated by a concern for user satisfaction. Satisfying the users is how you retain them, whether the product is free or costly. Dissatisfied users will flee the product, even if is is FOSS.

I would contend that a concern for the communities and individuals who use Nostr should motivate us to build excellent software with an excellent UX, whether those people are paying us for it or not.

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Teams require communication, which introduces the need for process, which results in rigidity. Only exceptional engineering teams can balance creativity and stability.

The incentives between altrustic FOSS freedom tech and capitalistic for-profit business are not the same, which leads to different outcomes. That's not to say that nostr won't ever have good UX, but the path to it is much less direct.

Teams also allow you to divide and conquer, and play to each contributor's strengths. If I'm really good at UIs and my teammate is excellent at backends, we can be more productive together, and the overall quality of the product will be better, because the frontend guy isn't stuck writing sub-par backend code, and the backend guy doesn't need to try to learn UX design.

That's basically what I'm saying. Nostr is fueled by individuals, not teams, hence the outcomes we're seeing. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it has its own benefits. Criticizing an apple because it's not as orange as an orange is is category error.

nostr is leaky (it can't be partitioned effectively), and nostr needs a localised, affinity based division of its relays and user groupings

the biggest failure in nostr architecture at this point is not recognizing that its perfect for private business to use for internal and public communications

My argument is that it is much harder for individuals working alone to build with the level of quality that will keep users consistently happy than it is for teams to do so. We talk a lot about user retention and adoption, then ask everyone to accept unstable software. That's fine, if all the expected users are hobbyists who run Linux and can tinker with configuration and code. However, Nostr is never going to appeal to the non-hobbyist types while it is still unstable and finding itself.

Maybe you should go back and re-read my original post

cat fight!!!!!!!!!!! yesssssssssss 🍿 😏

i'm agreeing with nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynqn on this one for sure

i think this is actually a big blindspot in the entire field of software architecture to not understand what one dude can do versus what needs more than one dude

and it should be pointed out that nostr:npub1jlrs53pkdfjnts29kveljul2sm0actt6n8dxrrzqcersttvcuv3qdjynqn is fielding a helper to do his work because he has hit a limit on what one person can build but honestly

just use coracle.social for a bit and tell me it's not pretty much on point

yeah, it's the best one out there, one dude.

and not to leave out the praise i feel, nostr:npub1ye5ptcxfyyxl5vjvdjar2ua3f0hynkjzpx552mu5snj3qmx5pzjscpknpr also is a one-dude situation who has built a really amazing nostr client that does a separate set of things that are equally almost perfect in their execution

this really drills at the heart of why nostr will win in the long run

because it has a unit that is small enough that one dude can encompass it with aplomb

Fastest thinker I've ever met.

Best designer on Nostr.

You're self-hosting it, tho.

And he's losing control of the sprawling codebase. It's grown too big and complex, for one person, and the bugs are creeping in. Especially, since he started working on Blossom, in parallel. Those are two, relatively large, popular projects, that need to be constantly updated and actively maintained and monitored, run by one, single person, who works almost entirely alone.

Incredibly brittle structure. That is not how we win.

Notifications, wiki, articles, reply threading, AUTH, event embedding, etc. all unstable and unpolished, in the newer increments. He might have to start removing functionality, to make sure that he can maintain the remainder.

my point is just that this wouldn't exist if it weren't for the level good programmers can get to

to take it to the next level does need a good team and it especially need legit architects, architecture is the hardest skill to learn because software does sprawl far beyond the ability to consider it in one "mind-full" if you know what i mean... beyond a couple of source files it is an elephant and you are a blind man

Has anyone tried to just be like:

"Hey guys, I've got this new release here where I fixed this and this bug, made x feature way better, etc etc.... Buuuut, I won't release it until this post gets ⚡1.234.567."

#zapwalls

Needs UX to give zappers tons of recognition of course.

site unseen? just like anygood hooker $ upfront (o_O) wisecrack!

nostr:npub10r8xl2njyepcw2zwv3a6dyufj4e4ajx86hz6v4ehu4gnpupxxp7stjt2p8 this is the sort of UVP that releasing apps on Nostr allows for.

What's wrong with a feature subscription though? Works very well for YouTube, protonmail, and many others... I just started using a paid search engine now too, this is the way.jpg

I don't know. I have a few, as well, and I like them. Also, just a nice way to support a project you like to use, and allow them to finance a free service for other people and stabilize their revenues.

We're going for the feature subscription thing, over a relay subscription. (Being whitelisted on theforest relay will open up additional functionality or services, and access to additional private relays.)

1. Offering hosting and computation services makes sense both for monetization and for providing a reliable product/experience

2. Pay-per-use of those services makes you more adaptive in a highly competitive market. Nothing stopping you from offering pre-paid bundles.

Grants postpone thinking about that sort of stuff

For the record, I pointed out that Coracle is the most-stable web client we currently have, last week. I tested them all the same way, and it came out first, but I still prefer Nostrudel because of the threading UX and some administrative functions like two-level relay management.

He couldn't see that, as he has me muted, but that's his problem, not mine.

yeah, this is pretty much my technical assessment of the state of the clients

amethyst gets so much hype but it's rubbish in comparison

anyhow, we have our fucking discussion forum, time for some DMs and group chats ffs lol