Yeah, the lies we were all taught are indeed disgusting propaganda.
Discussion
Narratives are crafted, not discovered. Seek truth beyond the headlines. #Think
If you think holocaust was a hoax then no one can help you
I don't, I know that the way it was spun is a hoax.
It wasn't 6 million.
No evidence that anyone was gassed based on independent analysis done on the brickwork.
No evidence Hitler ever gave an order to kill Jews. In fact, there are letters of him reprimanding those who did.
I don't care for Hitler. I have nothing against the average Jewish person. I do however take issue with how a small group of people using Judaism as a front to shield themselves and their actions from criticism and manipulate the world into a frenzy over things that are not only untrue, but physically impossible and fictitious lies.
Listen to David Irving speak about it. I realise you are likely set on only hearing one side of the story, but the information is out there if you care to look for it.
https://odysee.com/@UnlockingFreedom:d/David-Irving-Interview-2009---His-Life-and-Revisionism:b
Sorry, I won't waste my time on holocaust denier.
I am polish and I know really well history of my country.
Btw total toll was about 17 mln, with 6 mln jews and 11 mln non-jews. "Only" about 3 mln died in the camps. Others died in mass shootings, ghettos and other ways.
Yes, I already suspected you wouldn't entertain the opposing argument which has a lot of nuance to it. Irving isn't a denier, but you suggesting he is is a good demonstration of how little your really know about the facts, or what many revisionists talk and write about. Another victim of trauma based mind control.
You could just straight up read the transcripts from Nuremberg in Carlos Porters 'Made in Russia'. But discovering that your closely held beliefs are not quite what you thought they were isn't for everyone, or even most.
I'm Polish too btw. Your nationality doesn't provide any special insights in this case.
Remember those photos of emaciated people being freed from German camps at the end of the war?
If those camps were elaborate fronts for gas chambers (and electric floors and vacuum chambers and masturbation rollercoasters and human lampshade factories, etc) then how did the people live long enough to become emaciated?
Maybe your guess is that the German plan was to use starvation to kill these people, but then you have to build the camps and supply guards when it's a hell of a lot cheaper to just put one bullet in them. Killing a healthy prisoner is also more convenient in that you can probably get them to walk to their own grave (and maybe even dig it for you) rather than have to move their body around yourself.
If evil doesn't make sense from evil's own perspective, you're probably being lied to about what's going on.
They actually started killing jews by shooting them in the head, exactly like you said. See those mass shootings: Babi Yar, Rumbula Forest and Ponary.
The problem was a direct killing like that was too heavy on German soldiers, so they needed another method where killing is less direct and more "dissensitived", that's why gas chambers were created.
Besides, whole holocaust didn't make any sense and analysing it from economic standpoint is pointless. Even when Germans had logistic problems and withdrawing from the frontline, because Soviets were approaching, they still continued to use rail and lots of resources to continue the holocaust, even though their army really needed those resources.
Hitler was not driven by rationality, but by his ideology and it was the most important.
Camps were differing from each other, some of them were death camps some of them were labour camps. In labour camps people lived longer but also died out of hunger or diseases.
I see you already know answers to all your questions though, so I doubt any of that will change your thinking
And Kisin? Is that an example of a mass shooting in your book?
Excuse me, I had the name wrong, I am asking about Katyn
Your are ignoring the fact that we ALL once believed this story to be true. The only one unable to change their mind or even examine the other side is you.
But that's fine too. Like I said, the information is out there and it is up to individuals to examine it and draw their own conclusions.
👍
The thing that makes no sense to me about holocaust denial is that it’s not hard at all to believe it happened, especially when considering all of the other atrocities of World War 2 that were occurring simultaneously. Multiple genocides have happened before, during, and after that. It’s well within the bounds of human action to do such a thing. So, what is the real motive behind holocaust denial? In all cases, it seems to go hand in hand with outright antisemitism. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the argument from someone who does not consider themselves to be antisemitic. I’m generally curious how the holocaust denial camp would address this.
This is not an invitation for anyone to defend all of the reasons why they are antisemitic, but to defend holocaust denial from a completely objective perspective. It seems to me that fully denying that the holocaust ever happened is an irrational overreaction to the realization that Western democracies are also evil propaganda machines who lie to us about everything, and also perpetrate their own genocides. Just because one team is bad, doesn’t mean the opposing team is good.
The number of Jews in the world was estimated at almost exactly the same before and after WW2 - no missing six million.
Speaking of "six million", that's a number of special numerological and superstitious significance to Jews residing in Eastern Europe. You can find newspapers dating back before 1900 (and many between 1900 and WW2) which claim that six million Jews were somehow or other killed.
Cremation takes 2-3 hours. With 4 crematoria working day and night, Auschwitz could have cremated around 70,000 people in four years, far short of the 4.1 million claimed during the "Iron Curtain" period and also far short of the high hundreds of thousands / low 1 million claimed today.
Speaking of 4.1 million, somehow when that number was revised down by about 3 million the total number of deaths remained constant at 6 million.
Treblinka supposedly buried some 700,000 victims, forced a small handful of prisoners to dig them back up, cremated the remains in open air and then hid the whole operation with zero physical evidence.
The main source of information about Treblinka, a man named Jankiel Wiernik, reporting being shot in the shoulder but suffering no injury despite the bullet passing through his clothing and striking his flesh.
Hundreds of prisoners report being saved from an active gas chamber by Josef Mengele, including during time periods where Mengele was known to be elsewhere.
The whole story is full of these absurdities and incredibly flimsy if you start digging into it.
What is not flimsy is that there really was housing built to separate "undesirables" from the ordinary population, and as the war dragged on and German supply lines collapsed (a deliberate aim of the Allies) the Germans were no longer able to keep these people free of disease and well-nourished.
This led to the famous photographs of emaciated bodies and emaciated prisoners. However, those photographs were taken by the Americans at Western camps, where modern historians do not contend there was any extermination program at all. Nordhausen, for example, is often cited as photographic proof of the Holocaust (eg by Katie Couric interviewing Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) but there was no gas chamber or other execution method at Nordhausen.
It's even in the British archives. They made it up.
Someone, somewhere is having an 'oh fuck' moment.
When people are ready to see, they'll open their eyes. Until then it's esy to control their minds.
Propaganda runs deep into every part of our lives. So it needs constant effort to deconstruct what we came to believe at a young age.
Those who know. Know that they don't know. And that makes all the difference between a conditionend and a curious mind.
"In all cases, it seems to go hand in hand with outright antisemitism."
Yes, every single case of questioning the facts surrounding this is always just outright antisemitism. 🤣
You're hearing the argument from me, and I am very careful not to allow people to drive 'hate' into me for their own purposes.
Criticize Israel today (even if you're Jewish living in Israel) and you get called an antisemite. It's retarded. The funny thing is that many people no longer give a damn about being called antisemitic, and that sentiment grows by the day. Admittedly some people do have disdain for all Jewish people, but again, I think they are directing their misunderstanding of the nuance towards hating an entire nation of people. That's not me.
Also, denial? I'm not sure anyone denies the fact that Jews were killed. It is the figures and claimed events that people take issue with.
"It's not that hard to believe it all happened"
Indeed, that's why most people have never questioned it. It is exceedingly easy to take it all at face value, especially when we are all told about it from a young age, and it is hammered into us for our entire lives.
What I find most fascinating is that of the few revisionists I have listened to, they are all very calm and eloquent in their speech. They obviously do not hate Jewish people. Perhaps there are some that do, I haven't encountered them. But, thanks to all the propaganda and programming, people won't even listen to what they have to say. At first, I felt guilty for even exploring the topic. That's how heavily we have been programmed.
It's hard to be objective about anything when you've only ever heard one side of the story, and talking about it will destroy your career and in many countries land you in prison.
I don't hate Jews, I hate Judaism which is an evil and destructive cult.
I have multiple family members who converted. It would be pretty counterproductive for me to hate (ethnic) Jews.
The Israeli state is a fascist ethnostate. Intelligent, rational people don’t equate disdain for Israel as antisemitism. Most people aren’t really that intelligent or rational though.
Most states are terrible to their people, at varying scales. Israel is definitely up there though.
I would argue that the rational people shouldn't characterise criticism of certain facts surrounding the holocaust as outright antisemitism. It is similarly disingenuous to call it denial, because that is a propagandised term (~ 'safe and effective' or 'danger to democracy' or 'conspiracy theorist') because it presupposes that so called revisionists deny that any Jews were killed at that time, which is obviously ridiculous.
The issue I see coming down the road is that, because of how emotional the topic makes people, there isn't much room for a nuanced discussion, usually is just ad homs, there is going to be more radicalisation.
The State of Israel is a personification of Talmudic culture and religion (even among secular Jews who are highly influenced by the culture).
That culture and religion is what is evil - not Jewish blood, not Jewish soil. The evil comes from Jewish norms, Jewish language, and Jewish ideas.
I posted separately with some facts that tend to indicate that the standard Holocause narrative is a gross exaggeration or totally fabricated.
However, I want to address the psychological aspect as well. The Holocaust is not accorded the same status in our culture as something like the Armenian genocide. Instead, the Holocause narrative serves to demonize Europeans in general and Germans in particular while enshrining the Jews as a special and holy victim - a new Christ to replace the (hated) old Christ.
I am not evil.
I do not think some ethnic group of people is more sacred than others, either because of victimhood or anything else.
To reject these things does not require some special hatred of Jews (and especially not blind uninformed hatred for no reason). If you tell me I'm evil because my ancestors hunted passenger pigeons to extinction, you can fuck right off. It's not about the rationalization inside your narrative. The psychopathic narrative used to control me is what I reject, regardless of the detail.
Holocaust is very well documented fact. Only retards deny it
https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2012/10/index-of-published-evidence-on.html
Do you believe in arithmetic or do "only retards" believe in that?
From your link: "Letter for Hans Kori to concentration camp Majdanek that the cremation time of his ovens can be halved to 30 min per corpse by employing multiple cremations"
From the Holocaust encyclopedia (a pro-standard-narrative source):
The "first gassings" occur on "September 3 1941" and on "November 25 1944" "SS chief Heinrich Himmler orders the destruction of the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers and crematoria".
This is 1,179 days.
At 30 minutes per body (an unrealistically fast rate) and 4 crematoria that's 8 per hour or 192 working around the clock. Over 1,179 days they could have cremated 226,368 bodies. Not 4.1 million or 1.2 million.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/auschwitz-key-dates
Seems to me propaganda works by creating easy to consume labels that spread virally. You can label me "holocaust denier" and "antisemitic" and I can't label you anything back. Those labels are placeholders for actual thinking. You have no thoughts of your own on subjects where you apply labels.
I’m not labeling any specific person anything. I’m asking for a perspective on the topic from someone who does not honestly consider themselves to be antisemitic. That is, from someone who would not label themselves as antisemitic. For people who are, I would think that they should have no problem labeling themselves as such.
I don't have any special hostility towards Arabs
If you have the time I recommend this:
https://archive.org/embed/one-third-of-the-holocaust-mediarebell&autoplay=1